I'm concerned with SQ waaaay more than SPL. Which is why i'm only shooting for one really good sub and one amp and not 2. My desire is only for my own listening enjoyment - period. But I am a bass fiend and most of the music I listen to [drum n bass, dubstep, hiphop] has a solid majority of the song being mixed below 30hz.
Again , i'm not looking to crush the sub , but I am looking to accurately reproduce the music i'm listening to at loud volumes - not loud by competition standards , but loud by driver in the car standards - and at the same time I'm a computer musician / dj so I do value my hearing especially considering how crucial it is for sound production and engineering.
Volume means almost nothing to me without clarity. Bass is the hardest end of the sound spectrum to shape and analyze so I dont expect perfection in my car.
So would you recommend that Earthquake Amp over that Kenwood class D for use with this Dayton 15" for IB use? I'm an inch away from buying either one ...
[thanks for pushing that Earthquake ppia600
] I know you said that you usually end up swapping and mixing and matching to find the best fit but if you were to pick between those 2 which would it be? They are the same price within 5 dollars and both with free shipping.
So whats a good basic rule of thumb for not going into xmax and messing up the speaker? Start with the gain all the way down and slowly creep it up while watching the speaker to make sure it isn't at full excursion? Find a sweet spot and leave it ??
I can't recommend new amps because I don't buy or use many new ones and ones I have used I'm not impressed though they work ok, if I did I'd say get used...you could buy three and pick one for same money. I bought a 400w profile that is a little small for this use but it was ~$20 and works fine, would push a 12 I'd guess....if you see what I am saying. I'd rather spend on the HU and front speakers where it counts more for SQ. Cerwin Vega was another good deal as I recall one line used the same boards as a much more expensive line. The older amps tend to be EQ'd inside more, some of my best systems I used no EQ on. Things are different today but I still prefer older amps often.
You can run into an issue with too big an amp on IB subs they can get more dynamic. That means a peak in the bass can generate a lot of excursion even though listening level is not that high. This seems to be more of an issue with light duty subs that bottom easily. I don't use many expensive subs for IB I try to run more of them instead, in fact these infinity are most HD I have run IB. I mean if you think you might get a box later and need a larger amp, you could get it now. I don't think of it because I have 250/350/400/600/850/1kw rms class D amps sitting here, I could even strap two of the 1kw but never will. So far the newer amps I have listened to all have a flat curve, older amps may not.
Maybe someone else can chime in on amps. I work on them some now but still learning about quality and such. My issue is how they distort on mid/highs. Sub amps I don't worry about the sound that much either they have the power or not....but all that leads me right back to where I always been--try it and see. At least with a tweeter you have an idea of what one is brighter than another.
You have to look at it. I'd say set the system up like you would any other, then start cranking on it and watching the sub. When it gets real loud it will start moving and you will have to find the point you should stop, if you get there. With stock speakers I doubt you would. At normal listening levels my 12s hardly move. I'd say loud listening level is no wind noise at 80mph with all windows down. When mine get moving 1/4" I can feel it through the whole car, that is getting into show off territory there and above.
Like I said before mine is a little much and I did it to get db at 20Hz. It will blow me out of the car at 50Hz, my xover is at 45 and my EQ is -4db at 50. I want to swap to pair of moderate 15s, should still get 20Hz and give me more amp room, less weight. I will try a pair of cheap 15s first to see if they can do it, in fact will build the baffle to port the whole trunk to 20hz just for fun as that models to give way more output down there. If it worked I could use less power, but we will see and I'd have to deaden my trunk some. I have a little 350rms class D that would be perfect if it works, or could use about any amp really at that power level. Getting a lot out of a little is great fun when I have the time to play.
/\ The amp I linked is used, not new. It is also a high quality amp with great damping, which is an important spec when running IB setups. More amplifier damping = better. He can always turn the gain down (like it says below \/ ) It doesn't hurt to have more clean rms power than you need. This way you can push the speakers to their usebale limits without any amplifier clipping.
Ok, the earthquake auction ended with "buy it now". My audio bug was actually trying to coherse me into buying it just in case, lol. Good thing someone else grabbed it
Ok, the earthquake auction ended with "buy it now". My audio bug was actually trying to coherse me into buying it just in case, lol. Good thing someone else grabbed it
Hey these amps have their values, I am not familiar with that brand. I assume it is a PPI amp? Look what people pay for LP....has little to do with their real world performance as an amp. Thing I didn't like is the rust on the ends, or what looks like rust. Most of these old amps that are rough go for half what a nice one goes for, but I have no idea what ppi 2150 are worth I was never into ppi.
tsmith1315 said:
Ah ... I see ... It was.
This post really cleared up alot of grey area for me ... Thank you very much for the education and the reminder to relax. You hit that nail right on the head!
jol50 said:
I just purchased that Earthquake amp ... When you say too big an amp do you mean in general just TOO BIG or when the gain is CRANKED ?? I can always just turn the gain way down right? And then EQ a -4db at that peak? Would there be a way to find what that peak may be before I actually played the sub so that I could EQ it before hand?
haha , nice way to put it ...
When you say your crossover is at 45 do you mean that only 45hz and below are being played by the subs or 45hz and Above are being played by the subs because the trunk/box creates the 45hz below frequencies??
Yeah man! Thats my motto for life , although I do tend to spend a little too much time obsessing over the fine details ...
Thanks!!!
Back in the day, you would likely have gone through two or three full systems before taking the plunge into the realm of big bucks and monster amps.
Welcome to the old-school club with that Earthquake. Take care of it and it will retain the resale value.
The crystal ball says your car audio trip is just beginning...
Don't think it will be an issue with subs we have discussed. If you run sub near its limit the peaks bottom it out, larger amp make larger peaks...huge amp can bottom the sub before it is that close to max average bass you hear. You can see it in the sub it will not move that much and when something hits it moves 4 times as far instead of double, etc. Dynamic pretty much means the difference between the smallest and largest. A large amp has more voltage available to move the speaker...can make the louder sounds louder and quiet sounds still be quiet. Compression in music does the opposite.metaverse said:
Low pass. It is because of roll off with IB or sealed subs. Your db roll off as you go lower, so 50Hz will be much louder than 20Hz. So you get a sub that is tuned (Fs) low to help, but you still may have to EQ it some. What happens is it overruns the crossover. Say like my subs you are gaining db at 45 and up unlike a ported box that is more level curve if you model it. So as your crossover cuts db down at 45 and more as you go up, the sub is going up in db/efficiency. Then it plays to say 55Hz before the crossover really gets to cutting it. Cabin gain and crossover slope will affect how much, but I find it difficult to get to 20Hz in any car so far. Yeah 30Hz is ok but hey why not.
In simpler terms the sub does not want to play that low, you have less db from it lower you go. You cut the higher frequency it wants to play and force (more power) it to play the lowest sounds louder. That is why people run sealed subs with 1,000rms amps, so they can cross it over at 40Hz and lay the power to it. It might play 3 times louder at 80Hz, but then you could not hear the quiet 30Hz. If you play it real loud then you cut the 30 and below so you don't xmax it out, but like I said that should be pretty loud at that point, louder than the rest of what you have. If you run IB instead of sealed, the box does not limit excursion so you don't need big power to get the sub to move a lot. 'Move a lot' is what you need to get low for SQ. People prefer different setups of course.
Far as the amp wait until you get it, hard to tell by those photos. You don't want to mess up the paint, often I wipe them with light lube and wipe off so they stay like they are. Chrome screws you can take out and use something to clean them up. If a Zed they are quality amps, 2x150 those are nice size amps you can run just about anything with them from mids to subs. Only issue is how large they are if you don't need all the power. They certainly are built better than most new amps if that is what you are looking for. Me, I could care less what my amps look like. I'd run a pyramid that had been dragged down a gravel road if it did the job. I had a late 80s pyramid that was not a bad amp, ran it for few years.
What do you guys think of this thing IB... http://www.mach5audio.com/product_info.php?products_id=56&osCsid=3e644b03de78fc4658eb64dffead3af2
Fs 17.7
xmax 22mm
It shows more output under 28Hz than my quad 12s, smoother curve. Yeah its an 18".
Fs 17.7
xmax 22mm
It shows more output under 28Hz than my quad 12s, smoother curve. Yeah its an 18".
metaverse said:
LOL , it was me ...
Its late and i'm really tired , I'll be back tomorrow, i can't think very clear right now
Good score!
jol50 said:
Earthquake is earthquake. It hasn't been made by any other company for as long as I can remember. They may have started out being built by another company (in the 80's) but they've been made in San Fransisco, USA until recently when they started a cheaper line that seems to have asian built models.
tsmith1315 said:
I haven't noticed the resemblance to any autotek models but I guess there could be some Zed influence. Seems like the outputs would be mosfet as well if that 2150 was a zed. It appears to have bipolars. Earthquake has been making ultra huge high powered amps since the 80's. There was actually one on ebay a while back that was 300 rms by four into 4 ohms. I believe it was a pair on two channel amps in one shell. Mega full range beast.
I sold an autotek bts amp on ebay recently, I believe it was a 7300??
Thanks for all the help everyone - jol50 for the healthy explainations, ppia600 for pushing the Earthquake amp and helping with extra info in all 3 of the threads this project has traveled through and especially TimSmith for sticking with me and helping guide me through it all since the beginning a couple weeks ago. I really appreciate it more than you guys know, you've saved me alot of time and frustration while giving me a good education and the reminder to "relax" and enjoy the ride
I've got two last basic questions if you wouldn't mind giving me some quick pointers at the end here...
Do you guys recommend any specific amplifier installation kits , or any other parts I may be needing to integrate the amp , sub and headunit [preferably from parts-express or onlinecarstereo because i'm already ordering from both of those sites]
Should I use plywood or mdf for the sub mount - someone had suggested plywood because its cheaper??
And - i've assumed this whole time with the IB setup that the face of the speaker doesn't need to be exposed to the cabin of my car? It can be facing the back of the back seats and still be alright, right? Because that would suck if I had to cut a hole in my pleather seats LOL.
I think that about rounds it out , any other last parts , or pieces of advice before I dive in and get this thing rockin ?
and especially TimSmith for sticking with me and helping guide me through it all since the beginning a couple weeks ago. I really appreciate it more than you guys know, you've saved me alot of time and frustration while giving me a good education and the reminder to "relax" and enjoy the ride I've got two last basic questions if you wouldn't mind giving me some quick pointers at the end here...
Do you guys recommend any specific amplifier installation kits , or any other parts I may be needing to integrate the amp , sub and headunit [preferably from parts-express or onlinecarstereo because i'm already ordering from both of those sites]
Should I use plywood or mdf for the sub mount - someone had suggested plywood because its cheaper??
And - i've assumed this whole time with the IB setup that the face of the speaker doesn't need to be exposed to the cabin of my car? It can be facing the back of the back seats and still be alright, right? Because that would suck if I had to cut a hole in my pleather seats LOL.
I think that about rounds it out , any other last parts , or pieces of advice before I dive in and get this thing rockin ?
The plan is to bridge the earthquake and use this [Znom: 8 ohm - Re: 5.2 ohms] speaker for the IB setup:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-455&scqty=1
So then i'd want the 4 gauge
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=20398
... And I found this on google:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_3938_Kicker+CK4.html
How are we lookin?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-455&scqty=1
So then i'd want the 4 gauge
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=20398
... And I found this on google:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_3938_Kicker+CK4.html
How are we lookin?
Looks good to me. I don't like glass fuses, those ANL are nice.
I do baffles out of ply, I do a lot out of ply. Just easier to work with for me because I hate when MDF strips a screw. I tend to double up or put MDF on it, I have some half inch I use for that sometimes. Its up to you, MDF is little more dense. If you don't have that much wood I'm not sure it matters that much. In my car I used ply for the baffle and the support frame, then put mdf and chip board in the car around it to close it off and support it good. Then deadened it. I took the back plastic cover off the seatback, the subs fire through the foam and cloth is all. There is also a gap at top of seat I can get fingers into. It sounds the same with the seat out. I could have drove the car over the frame/baffle before I cut the holes, is all 3/4 ply. But is only couple inches larger than the speakers so really not much wood. On this car I used foam weatherstrip between the car and baffle, and put a lot of screws in it. Also weatherstripped the baffle board itself in case I swap subs to different size, and installed the loaded baffle that way.
I had to go grab a wire kit asap, I found a scosche at walmart for $35 at the time. It is for dual amps and 5ga. Since its a 700rms 5ch amp it should be good as I don't max it right out hardly ever, came with RCAs and all and seems to work ok. That was nice package I'd get a kit with all you need in it. Later I grabbed a 4ga power kit (no rca) off epay for $20, so if I run larger amps I'll just add the 4ga for the sub amp...but I'm going to try a smaller amp setup first. I don't know if falling copper prices came back to wire yet some of it went pretty high.
I'd try to mount the amp not on the sub to save it from vibration. Yes mine is right in the middle of them, I don't like it but had no room, and there is a support beam right under it. I even glued that frame together. Otherwise make sure you don't run the wires through sharp things, protect if you do.
I painted my baffle black with a spraycan. I have carpet for it but I was not sure of those subs so did not put it on. I bolted the sub wires through the baffle so they don't show, that was not yet done in the photo. Try to think ahead for that stuff if you can. Those subs work great but two 15s and I could mount amps much better so glad I did not carpet.
You have to seal the car from the trunk, I only deadened lower areas so I just got some peel and stick from the hardware chain. It is butyl, cheap, and I was doing the baffle, floor, and wheel wells back there mostly so even if it came loose it would still stay there. My frame goes over the rear deck and seals most of that. That said don't worry about every tiny hole it matters little if at all. I put some on the deck under the cover as well.
If you make the baffle larger or span some distance likely should brace or double it up if using 3/4.
I do baffles out of ply, I do a lot out of ply. Just easier to work with for me because I hate when MDF strips a screw. I tend to double up or put MDF on it, I have some half inch I use for that sometimes. Its up to you, MDF is little more dense. If you don't have that much wood I'm not sure it matters that much. In my car I used ply for the baffle and the support frame, then put mdf and chip board in the car around it to close it off and support it good. Then deadened it. I took the back plastic cover off the seatback, the subs fire through the foam and cloth is all. There is also a gap at top of seat I can get fingers into. It sounds the same with the seat out. I could have drove the car over the frame/baffle before I cut the holes, is all 3/4 ply. But is only couple inches larger than the speakers so really not much wood. On this car I used foam weatherstrip between the car and baffle, and put a lot of screws in it. Also weatherstripped the baffle board itself in case I swap subs to different size, and installed the loaded baffle that way.
I had to go grab a wire kit asap, I found a scosche at walmart for $35 at the time. It is for dual amps and 5ga. Since its a 700rms 5ch amp it should be good as I don't max it right out hardly ever, came with RCAs and all and seems to work ok. That was nice package I'd get a kit with all you need in it. Later I grabbed a 4ga power kit (no rca) off epay for $20, so if I run larger amps I'll just add the 4ga for the sub amp...but I'm going to try a smaller amp setup first. I don't know if falling copper prices came back to wire yet some of it went pretty high.
I'd try to mount the amp not on the sub to save it from vibration. Yes mine is right in the middle of them, I don't like it but had no room, and there is a support beam right under it. I even glued that frame together. Otherwise make sure you don't run the wires through sharp things, protect if you do.
I painted my baffle black with a spraycan. I have carpet for it but I was not sure of those subs so did not put it on. I bolted the sub wires through the baffle so they don't show, that was not yet done in the photo. Try to think ahead for that stuff if you can. Those subs work great but two 15s and I could mount amps much better so glad I did not carpet.
You have to seal the car from the trunk, I only deadened lower areas so I just got some peel and stick from the hardware chain. It is butyl, cheap, and I was doing the baffle, floor, and wheel wells back there mostly so even if it came loose it would still stay there. My frame goes over the rear deck and seals most of that. That said don't worry about every tiny hole it matters little if at all. I put some on the deck under the cover as well.
If you make the baffle larger or span some distance likely should brace or double it up if using 3/4.
jol50 said:
Nice ... I had a friend whos been building his own speaker setups with boxes for some time and he said plywood is always a good choice - MDF isn't quite needed. I plan on going plywood myself - would you suggest doubling up 2 pieces of 3/4 ply ? Or just 2 slices of 1/2 inch?
When you say "deadened it" how do you mean? And with what? I'm coming from a music production angle so I always think about auralex or Big thick blankets on walls to deaden sound ...
When you say between the car and the baffle do you mean along the frame of the trunk where it meets the back seats? And the stripping on the board was that just along the inner edges of the ply where it kisses the back seats?
What length RCA's would you recommend , 6' or 10' + ...
About the copper , I've got friends that are still making thousands of dollars on 3/4 one van load of copper wiring at the recycling plant.
Mount it Over the wheel well or just tucked in a corner or something?
Is that support beam just running right to left across over the baffle frame ?
I've never done this before so could you elaborate a little? Do you mean just cover everything with the tape or do you mean seal the cracks and places like that in the trunk area where two sections are coming together?
Sorry about all the questions i just want to make sure I do this right
thanks again
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