I'm replacing a pair of Vifa P13/14 (can't remember but they're the 5") I think after 12 years they've had it.
Its going into a MGB. I soundproofed the car and the doors and in the past had the stereo sounding great even with all the wind noise. I'd like to get back to that.
I'm looking at either the Peerless 85017 http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=685
Or the Morel MW144 http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=604
Obviously the Morels are twice the price. I put a pair of Peerless mids in my wife's MINI and was very impressed with their sound. I want to get the best out of my situation and wondered if the added expense of the Morel is worth it or I could only hear the difference in a quiet cabin.
TIA!
Its going into a MGB. I soundproofed the car and the doors and in the past had the stereo sounding great even with all the wind noise. I'd like to get back to that.
I'm looking at either the Peerless 85017 http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=685
Or the Morel MW144 http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=604
Obviously the Morels are twice the price. I put a pair of Peerless mids in my wife's MINI and was very impressed with their sound. I want to get the best out of my situation and wondered if the added expense of the Morel is worth it or I could only hear the difference in a quiet cabin.
TIA!
Cool car, loads of fun. What year is it?
And which Peerless did you put into the Mini? IIRC, at one point you were looking for a suitable amplifier for it. Did you ever make a choice?
I started using the “inexpensive” European drivers 20 years ago, and have been consistently impressed with them. With the exception of a pair of Alphasonik D6200 plates, that’s all I’ve used in my own car since.
Either speaker could work well for you, but I think the Morels would have a distinct advantage in power handling and low end response. They’re less efficient to start with so they’d need more power than the Peerless, but with the 3” voice coil they can handle the power it will require to get over the wind.
In addition, the Morels’ response is well suited for IB, being almost critically damped by the suspension itself. They would be a little under 5dB down at 55Hz in IB. In contrast the Peerless would be 5dB down around 95Hz in IB.
It’s not a big deal, but be aware that the MW144 uses a stamped steel frame with a rolled flange that may need a gasket underneath. You can see it in the photo.
Again, either speaker is capable of providing very good performance. I’ve looked at the 4” and 5” Peerless CSC-X’s many times and wishes I had a need for them because they offer such promising performance for the price.
The Peerless would offer very similar sound and performance to your old Vifas. When they were new, that is.
I’m really surprised there aren’t more roll-your-own separates threads in this group. It’s entirely possible to put together some excellent car sounding speaker systems for relatively little money if you’re willing to do the research.
And which Peerless did you put into the Mini? IIRC, at one point you were looking for a suitable amplifier for it. Did you ever make a choice?
I started using the “inexpensive” European drivers 20 years ago, and have been consistently impressed with them. With the exception of a pair of Alphasonik D6200 plates, that’s all I’ve used in my own car since.
Either speaker could work well for you, but I think the Morels would have a distinct advantage in power handling and low end response. They’re less efficient to start with so they’d need more power than the Peerless, but with the 3” voice coil they can handle the power it will require to get over the wind.
In addition, the Morels’ response is well suited for IB, being almost critically damped by the suspension itself. They would be a little under 5dB down at 55Hz in IB. In contrast the Peerless would be 5dB down around 95Hz in IB.
It’s not a big deal, but be aware that the MW144 uses a stamped steel frame with a rolled flange that may need a gasket underneath. You can see it in the photo.
Again, either speaker is capable of providing very good performance. I’ve looked at the 4” and 5” Peerless CSC-X’s many times and wishes I had a need for them because they offer such promising performance for the price.
The Peerless would offer very similar sound and performance to your old Vifas. When they were new, that is.
I’m really surprised there aren’t more roll-your-own separates threads in this group. It’s entirely possible to put together some excellent car sounding speaker systems for relatively little money if you’re willing to do the research.
"I’m really surprised there aren’t more roll-your-own separates threads in this group. It’s entirely possible to put together some excellent car sounding speaker systems for relatively little money if you’re willing to do the research."
I agree completely! I'm just amazed at the combo of the Peerless 830513/832513 6.5" and Seas 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" textile dome tweeter for a total of $150 the MINI sounds amazing even though I haven't changed out the rear 6x9 (haven't found what I like) or added an amp.
On the amp since the speakers sound so natural I just decided to find something that will fit behind the rear panel where they put the factory one. So either a Alpine PDX or the new JBL pint size amp I saw at CES.
Right now in the MG (1971 MGB) I have a pair of Assassins on the rear firewall firing forward and a Soundstream MC275 which is bridged for the front pairs which use a passive x-over.
I really gotta convince myself the Morels will be a huge set up from the Peerless. You provided good info. The Peerless while having a smaller magnet are a little deeper but have a higher Q if that matters. Shallow is better obviously in this app.
I agree completely! I'm just amazed at the combo of the Peerless 830513/832513 6.5" and Seas 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" textile dome tweeter for a total of $150 the MINI sounds amazing even though I haven't changed out the rear 6x9 (haven't found what I like) or added an amp.
On the amp since the speakers sound so natural I just decided to find something that will fit behind the rear panel where they put the factory one. So either a Alpine PDX or the new JBL pint size amp I saw at CES.
Right now in the MG (1971 MGB) I have a pair of Assassins on the rear firewall firing forward and a Soundstream MC275 which is bridged for the front pairs which use a passive x-over.
I really gotta convince myself the Morels will be a huge set up from the Peerless. You provided good info. The Peerless while having a smaller magnet are a little deeper but have a higher Q if that matters. Shallow is better obviously in this app.
A real MGB, excellent! Do you still have chrome bumpers and wire wheels??? You can't peel it off the road with a spatula, even on stock tires!
I read Qts's of 0.41 for the Peerless and 0.55 for the Morel. The Morel's magnet is inside the voice coil, so it's misleading to compare magnet sizes visually.
Sound like you have plenty of power... OK, OK, I'll hush and leave you alone to grapple with decisions.
Good luck!
I'd spring for the MW144's, and feel guilty about it later!
The sound will not be quite as lively as the vifas, but very accurate and you almost can't overpower them (except for exceeding xmax).
A passive crossover will need to be specialized for this driver, and voice coil inductance is significant. Adding a zobel to flatten that is just a simple R-C in parallel and is worthwhile. Be sure to pad the tweeters, as they'll likely be more efficient than the MW's.
Again, this is only my strongly biased opinion.
The sound will not be quite as lively as the vifas, but very accurate and you almost can't overpower them (except for exceeding xmax).
A passive crossover will need to be specialized for this driver, and voice coil inductance is significant. Adding a zobel to flatten that is just a simple R-C in parallel and is worthwhile. Be sure to pad the tweeters, as they'll likely be more efficient than the MW's.
Again, this is only my strongly biased opinion.
tsmith1315 said:
But Tim! I want everything. Accuracy, lively, everything! javascript:smilie('
') There is a passive network with coils and caps but it was built so long ago I don't remember the specs. Actually I was going to run the mid open as I did with the Peerless on Madisounds rec'. It works perfectly. Then I would just put a 10uF cap on the tweets to protect them.Bad idea?
Most of us want EVERYTHING, or we wouldn't be in this forum!
Not a bad idea at all, especially when the mid and tweeter aren't close together. The Morel has a fairly clean HF response as it rolls off, and is a great candidate for this operating mode. (Some woofers have resonance/phase issues that need to be hushed.)
I'd still add a Zobel on the woofer to flatten the impedance rise. It's just an cap in series with a resistor wired in parallel with the woofer -cheap, easy and can do nothing but help IMHO.
I come up with 11.8uF and 6.5 ohms for the MW144 zobel, Madisound or Morel may have suggestions of their own.
What are you using for tweeters?
ok. I'll make the Zobel. I build home tube audio and know caps can make a huge difference. I'd have to get some good polypropylenes and carbon comp resistor.
I was going to use this tweeter with a 10uF cap on it like I did for the mini. It seems to be their rec' aside from a LP that has a metal dome and I don't like metal domes.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1466
I was going to use this tweeter with a 10uF cap on it like I did for the mini. It seems to be their rec' aside from a LP that has a metal dome and I don't like metal domes.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1466
So you really are happy with your results in the Mini, or you wouldn't be using that SEAS again, huh?
Nice tweeter, chances are good I'll be using the 25mm square flange on my next project.
Got any tube project pics?
Component selection's not critical with the Zobel, as they aren't directly in the signal path. Your philosophy will make your selection. I usually use decent quality inexpensive parts like the ones in this 6" Audax LP filter:
Nice tweeter, chances are good I'll be using the 25mm square flange on my next project.
Got any tube project pics?
Component selection's not critical with the Zobel, as they aren't directly in the signal path. Your philosophy will make your selection. I usually use decent quality inexpensive parts like the ones in this 6" Audax LP filter:
Attachments
Hey Tim,
Another question. Since I'm sorta getting rid of the passive xover I'm wondering if I should run the Soundstream 245 in tri-amp mode?
I've always run it bridged because of the xover and I thought more power the better.
What do you think? What I give up in power would I be happy with the resolution/reproduction? I really like mid bass slam though.
Another question. Since I'm sorta getting rid of the passive xover I'm wondering if I should run the Soundstream 245 in tri-amp mode?
I've always run it bridged because of the xover and I thought more power the better.
What do you think? What I give up in power would I be happy with the resolution/reproduction? I really like mid bass slam though.
*I* think that sitting in the driveway you’d be very happy with the triamped setup, but would quickly miss the power when driving.
My take on it…
Looking up the 245 spec’s in 5 channel mode, it’s 4x35 plus sub. If you biamp the mid/tw, that’s *effectively* the same power as a single 2x35 using a lossless passive crossover. The normal advantages to biamping are
-eliminating passive crossover losses,
-easy or cheap adjustment to crossover frequency,
-easier/cheaper to make precise crossover adjustments if crossover design allows for it,
-cheaper to use good quality resistive/reactive devices,
-separate power supplies so that if one amp is over driven it will not necessarily affect the other.
- each amp is working in a limited frequency band.
In your case, you’d still be using one power supply for both frequency bands, so that’s a non-advantage, and to a lesser degree will affect the last advantage listed.
I'm sure these advantages are debateable, and others may see other advantages.
Bridged in 3-channel mode, the amp is rated at 2x90 plus sub. That’s a significant increase, and you’d likely miss that power very soon -especially in midbass. I think a system would have to cause a cardiac arrest for me to give in and say “that’s enough midbass.”
As an experimenter, if it were my car, I’d absolutely have to try it both ways. Just to see. And I would *expect* to be more satisfied in 3-channel operation.
If you do triamp, please remember that the tweeters still need a cap to block DC, as the voice coils are more delicate and can’t take even small amounts of DC happily.
Either way, do keep us posted.
Oooh, a philosophical question this is.
Keep in mind that I’m an old-school guy almost exclusively, because I know exceptional products from my era in the business, they can be had at reasonable prices now, and they are still valid as excellent products unless you need other features.
Someday?…
I’m actually planning to do a fully active setup in my own car, whenever I figure out what car that is going to be. I have most of the equipment already, with the exception of car-dependent speaker choices, and another crossover or two which are likely to be DIY anyway.
So this turns out to be somewhat of a loaded question. For a tri-amp system, I would use 3 separate amps in the 2x75 to 2x125W range each. With higher power output or higher current demands, you’ll be testing the limits of an old Lucas alternator.
If the woofers were reasonably efficient, I’d use something like:
*H/K CA260 (1-2 ohm, fan cooled), or
Zapco Z-220 (2-4 ohm operation), or
Autotek 7150 BTS (2 ohm), or believe it or not…
Alphasonik PMA 2150 (2-4 ohm)
Midrange is important, it'll cover ~5 of the 10 octaves you hear:
Linear Power 2002 (no matter what anyone says, it’s an excellent midbass amp -trust me
), or*Zapco 200A 3-piece, or Z220, or
Autotek 7150 BTS, or
PPI 2075M
For tweeters:
*Zapco 200A/151A, or Z220, or
Autotek 7150 BTS, or
PPI2075M
YMMV. Crossovers would have to be external. The PPI amps would facilitate easy DIY crossovers and line drivers with their bipolar voltage output. The 3 piece Zapco’s have no input level adjustments. For a low cost option, use 3 Alphasonik PMA 2100's and you’ll be surprised. No warranty expressed or implied.
WOw! What a wealth of gear rec's. Very cool.
I gave up on the Lucas Alt years ago when the ancient Lucas man who rebuilt it every two years took me aside and said "Do you want originality or do you just want to drive your car?!" Then he put in a French solid state alt. Higher rating (I think 95 and not problems).
My only other problem is just space. The 245 fits perfectly between the two subs in the car. No room to spare. I just talked to Madisound and they reminded me that the Morels (arriving tomorrow) need nominal 150W. Yikes!
I'll break the speaker in for about 100 hours in the hours and then just slug them in the car and listen. Eventually I need to get new door panels so I can make it look as subtle as possible.
I gave up on the Lucas Alt years ago when the ancient Lucas man who rebuilt it every two years took me aside and said "Do you want originality or do you just want to drive your car?!" Then he put in a French solid state alt. Higher rating (I think 95 and not problems).
My only other problem is just space. The 245 fits perfectly between the two subs in the car. No room to spare. I just talked to Madisound and they reminded me that the Morels (arriving tomorrow) need nominal 150W. Yikes!
I'll break the speaker in for about 100 hours in the hours and then just slug them in the car and listen. Eventually I need to get new door panels so I can make it look as subtle as possible.
The ancient Lucas man! Hilarious! See attached pic for the Lucas repair kit.
Yeah, I can imagine space is an issue. My brother drove a '72 B for a few years, that trunk is small. I have a '75 Alfa Romeo, and it's about the same.
The MW's design is very similar to the Dynaudio 17W series. One of my old employers was floored at my Dynaudio 17W75's ability to absorb power.
I brought the box I had built for them into the showroom to give him a demo. He was sure that a pair of 6 inchers would need to be run off the Punch 45 he bragged about so often, and anything larger would be overkill. The 45 was rendered powerless.
So we took it into the home audio room and connected it to the 200W/Ch Carver M1.0. They came to life and easily pegged the Carver's power meters.
I used them for years with 100W/ch in the car.
Attachments
Yeah, I've seen the smoke before. Nice e-type, yours?
Well Madisound screwed up the order. First time. They sent 8 Ohm instead of 4 Ohm Morel's. Then the shipping person kept saying "Ok you want the 8 Ohm. I'll ship those out". I repeated 4 Ohm maybe 6 times.
Anyway, when I decided to add some small bits to the order I ended up talking to their auto guy who insisted on a coil at least on the Morel's. Then we talked about the tweeter and he said the LPGs are much better. So I upgraded to those. Which needed a different value cap. In the end I shipped the entire order back.
Bummer as I wanted to start breaking them in over the weekend. In the end I'll probably have what I should've started with so its ok.
Ugh. I have I'm feeding those Morel's enough power. Hey, since we're the only two people in this thread you want to continue via email?
Well Madisound screwed up the order. First time. They sent 8 Ohm instead of 4 Ohm Morel's. Then the shipping person kept saying "Ok you want the 8 Ohm. I'll ship those out". I repeated 4 Ohm maybe 6 times.
Anyway, when I decided to add some small bits to the order I ended up talking to their auto guy who insisted on a coil at least on the Morel's. Then we talked about the tweeter and he said the LPGs are much better. So I upgraded to those. Which needed a different value cap. In the end I shipped the entire order back.
Bummer as I wanted to start breaking them in over the weekend. In the end I'll probably have what I should've started with so its ok.
Ugh. I have I'm feeding those Morel's enough power. Hey, since we're the only two people in this thread you want to continue via email?
Nope, came with the photo.
My father has a '67 XKE coupe with ~45k miles, my oldest brother has a '75 XJ6C, and my other brother has a '75 TR6. We've also had a '69 TR-6 and '72 MGB in the family. I'm the odd one out with the Italian.
Either way's fine with me. Looks like a few people have viewed, but no one seems interested enough to comment.
My email button should work, or just add @bellsouth.net to username.
And you'll have enough power with 90W/Ch.
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