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Old 1st April 2003, 09:55 AM   #11
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Location: Australia
Many of the amplifiers rated a 10x2 w rms @ 4 ohms are Class D/T
In the case of many competion setups loads genrally don't get much smaller than .5 or maybe .25 ohms at the smallest.
I've just finished (well the electronics part anyway... box is still under construction) my very own car amp.
I probly went overboard but.....
I used a combination of Rod elliots and Valve audios SMPS to create my PSU which gives out a fairly clean +-35 (about 40 at 13.8v- not tested yet) which with some TO-3's capable of 250w each will probly give out about 175w rms and draw a little over 60 amps from the battery.
Besides from cost factor (my amp being well under 500 bux cheaper than commercial ones) it honestly sounds alot better than any commercial "look its rated at Max power (10% THD)" amp whilst also being able to match it with the 'high end' of comsumer car audio.
When I finish the chassis I'll definatly post pics and exactly what I did to get it all working.
The word will hopefully spread round and more people will get into DIY car audio.
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Old 1st April 2003, 09:24 PM   #12
toenail is offline toenail  United States
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That's alot of amperes to be drawing from any automotive electrical system, but I'm sure you've taken steps to handle it.

The Orion in question was of the HCCA variety. A couple of Canadiens in a pick-up drove down to an IASCA event to test it out. They fried the alternator sitting in the parking lot doing sine sweeps from 100 down to 20hz showing off for the crowd. They were never able to make it to the SPL judging. They were running 12 pairs of 10's isobaric mounted off that single amp in the cab of the truck behind the bench seat. The output was truly impressive.

I ran 4 JL 10's off my Pheonix Gold MS275 at 1 ohm forever and never got it to heat up.

Good luck with your project, and definitely post pics when you get the chance.
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Old 2nd April 2003, 12:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
That's alot of amperes to be drawing from any automotive electrical system, but I'm sure you've taken steps to handle it.
The scary thing is its not my sub amp
I forgot to mention each amp uses dual P3A's running @ 175w rms (abouts.... need to get it measured).

I work for a jaycar retailer and they've just released thier new catalog which has some new sub's but no new amps. one being a 10 inch 250 W rms DVC (2x 1ohm) metal cone tank. I'm considering getting one to play with

Quote:
They fried the alternator sitting in the parking lot doing sine sweeps from 100 down to 20hz showing off for the crowd.
TYpically stock alternators do about 60amps for little cars and up to about 120 if you own a V8 (and extremly lucky) but most competions won't let your run your engine whilst doing an SPL burp so its all battery.
Since where getting a little off topic....
If you compare the Response to the eclipse amps you'll probly find theres not alot of difference. Eclipse will give you some added feature (balanced inputs and watnot) but sonicly they bost take alot of measures to get a good sound.
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Old 2nd April 2003, 12:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by fr0st

I work for a jaycar retailer and they've just released thier new catalog which has some new sub's but no new amps. one being a 10 inch 250 W rms DVC (2x 1ohm) metal cone tank. I'm considering getting one to play with

That sub costs $199 buy a Peerless 12inch XLS (8ohm) that costs $199 too... And, the Jaycar one only has an X-Max of 10mm and if you ask me, it looks STUPID!!!! lol and it doesn't have a metal cone, it has a metal coated cone.. lol
would you really want that sub?? lol
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Old 3rd April 2003, 08:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
That sub costs $199 buy a Peerless 12inch XLS (8ohm) that costs $199 too... And, the Jaycar one only has an X-Max of 10mm and if you ask me, it looks STUPID!!!! lol and it doesn't have a metal cone, it has a metal coated cone.. lol
good point lol
I've only been showed the new catalog... I havn't been to work since they got it so I don't have one yet.
Cone materials don't make the biggest of difference. Poly cones sound better IMO but I've never heard a decent set.
I think street machine (the mag) did a comparison between amps a while ago and thats how response got its reputation for value/quality.
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Old 3rd April 2003, 12:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by fr0st

good point lol
I've only been showed the new catalog... I havn't been to work since they got it so I don't have one yet.
Cone materials don't make the biggest of difference. Poly cones sound better IMO but I've never heard a decent set.
I think street machine (the mag) did a comparison between amps a while ago and thats how response got its reputation for value/quality.

Hmm.. I see... so, how much cheaper can you get stuff from Jaycar? I agree that the ReSponse stuff if value for money, but if you have to pay retail for the ReSponse, when you can get Peerless for trade, I'd go with peerless.... But, if I wanted it NOW!! I'd probably get ReSponse.. lol but for like a home I'd go with Peerless, even though I had to wait.. lol
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Old 3rd April 2003, 02:15 PM   #17
protos is offline protos  Greece
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This is the first time I have read a car audio thread and I must say that I am still unsure of the need of many hundreds if not thousands of watts . I know that in the audiophile community the objective is mainly quality and a even a high-powered sytem would be in the region of 2x200w which seems low in car audio today. I also see that car audio competitions are mainly about db's and bass output.
I can understand why people soup up their cars but I don't see how achieving 135db and deafness will increase musical enjoyment or is it just a matter of bragging rights?
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Old 3rd April 2003, 03:47 PM   #18
CarMan is offline CarMan  United States
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Yes, a lot of the car audio community doesn't know/care about quality. People just want a "system" for their car. These amps that put out 4x200 watts and such usually do what they say, but check out the S/N ratio and THD. I got a $60 dollar amp when I was 16 which was "400watts max" With my father being an audiophile I knew to look at the 70x2 watts rms. $60 was not bad for this amp, which sounded good at lower volumes. On par with my 80x2 Teac home stereo reciever I had at the time.

There are several reasons to get your car to play 135db. First, your stereo will be able to handle any musical score you throw at it with *very* little distortion at listening levels. Second, there are many road noises esp. on the highway; some people like thier music to be louder than the road noise. Third, you can use it like a boombox at the park, camping, etc. Lastly, Many lower tones "sound" better when you can feel them. Deafness? Not if you aren't in the car, or if you follow the dolby A weighting for just bass. I seem to remember seeing that you can listen to a 20hz tone at 60db higher than a 1khz, and 40hz something like 40db higher.

Lastly, I'd like to say that people want something they like. If you like to feel your bones vibrate to the music, so be it. I'll say it can be relaxing. However, most people don't know what a flat frequency response sounds like, and don't like it at first when they hear it. I have 3 friends that I've gotten to stop using the bass/treble controls, but all were opposed at first. The Loudness button can sound better depending on the system, but usually that should go too. I recommend that if you like your bass loud, simply turn your sub amp up a little bit. Many times, turning the bass down on your deck and the sub amp up will get you a lower and flatter response.

With the exception of the IASCA guys (forced, due to implementation of Real Time Analyzer testing) the great majority of car audio enthusiasts don't care much about a nice flat response. Many care about "clean sound" (not as many as I thought would) but clean sound and flat response are not the same.

Thousands of watts is ridiculous unless you want one of the things mentioned above. However, hundreds of watts can *sometimes* be necessary for distortion free music that plays slightly louder than your home stereo, enough to play over some road noise. Generally 50watts true rms is more than enough for midranges, even crossed at 60hz, but 100-200 is often needed if your sub goes lower than 30hz.

BTW I have seen and listened to some 4 channel amps realisticly rated at over 4x50 rms at 4 ohms, but the amps get huge. This seems strange to me because I have a 50x2 amp that is only 10x10x3, and puts out 428 watts (measured) RMS at 4 ohms bridged, .03%THD.
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Old 5th April 2003, 02:05 PM   #19
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You always get a good feeling when you rock up to traffic lights at 140 db
Alot of people are tending to go towards sound quality setups rather than the doof doof most people are looking for. I was going for both.... only because I could though.
Making my amp was really a learning thing coz i've never made a smps before and it intrested me. A couple of weeks later (and about 10 different transformer windings) I had a fully working one that could handle 800w continuously... it makes sense to strap the biggest amps you can to it
My next amp will definately be in the kilowatts. This time for the spank factor of the whole thing but I enjoy it and thats what counts.
Quote:
However, most people don't know what a flat frequency response sounds like, and don't like it at first when they hear it.
a VERY true statement
The single reason why spending an extra 100 bux on a headunit that has extra EQ settings is pointless. Also the reason I hate my brothers sony deck... he has rather expensive front splits and they sound harsh the all the EQ he puts on them.
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Old 5th April 2003, 04:30 PM   #20
Rudy is offline Rudy  Belgium
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no offence to all you KWat lovers, but have you ever did the calculation if a car can even deliver 1Kwat's or even more

now music power 1Kwat i can believe, but you guys dont even think that 500 ... 1500Wat RMS

lets make a little calculation here

Car alternator voltage = 15V max
Car amplifier = lets say it needs 1KW ( prolly 2 * 300W amp )
Wire resistance from batery to amp = 0.1 ohm ( this is practically way more )

sow , lets see

1000W / 15 V -> the current is therefore 66.6A
result 0.1 * 66.66 = 6.66V voltage drop over the cable
result 15 - 6.66 = 8.34V voltage on the amp side
result amp needs more amps to be able to deliver the 1Wat
result ... the voltage goes down on the amp side, ask more and more power from the battery ( or alternator ) and at the end the battery ( or alternator ) is delivering 0W to the amp and KWat's to the cable, in other words you will likely kill your car whitin day's

So, now all you guys would say , hey but i use havy cable's sow my resistance in the cables is lower ... wrong, you would never ever go beneed the 0.1E as in the example, and whe arent even talking about the internal resistance of the battery and the alternator, witch are mutch bigger.

So getting 500+ wats out of a car, just forget it

Now, i dont say that those power amps are bad, just dont expect that they will deliver 100W RMS per channel, becouse they dont, they perhaps could in lab-situations, but not in a car.

If you like it loud in a car, okey but then first search for 95dB+ sensitive speakers and buy yourself a very decent 50W amp, thats brings the max output to 112db/channel, in stereo that is 115dB, this kind of dB levels couses a lot of pain...

Greetz Rudy
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