Nah...There not factory...I changed out the front 6 1/2's and rear 6X9's first and then installed my HU and then started off with 1 10" sub for a while...but the front and rear speakers were the first things I changed. They aren't component but they are very good for highs as that's all I wanted to really use my 6 1/2 for up front and they are Kenwood's...Not sure on the model of them. I just purchased some Kenwood 1" tweeters to replace the front factory ones and I'm going to run some 16 AWG wire to my fronts instead of using the factory wiring cause I started smelling burnt electric smell when I turned up the radio for a while. I can then finally set my highs to a high volume where I want them. The 6 1/2's and rear 6X9's are on High Pass crossover on the amp right now and a 120hz frequency. I had it up for a while before and it sounded good and clean but I was like, now where did my low's go? I like a little bit of bass overrun for the lows...Especially for rock music. To me, it let's me realize how good the bass sounds in the car.
Ok...Just got back from my grandmas and spent a hour unscrewing everything off the back of the box, pulling the box out, dragging out that other ported box I had, unscrewing and taking out my subs out of the sealed box, and then putting everything back in the car. I stuck the sealed box in the back of the garage for now. It does give me more of a punch and bass response but I'm still not satisified in it. Maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow on the way to work after I give my ears a chance to calm down. Certain songs did however make me want to run for cover and sounded better than the sealed box. I just want more harder hitting bass and don't know how to get it now. Oh well...Why I thought the 15 would give me more bump and bass response. I'm going to still test out this ported box for a couple days. It's good that I have it. It's better than spending $100.00 for a box and find out it sucked and lose all that money. This gives me a idea as to what a ported box might sound like. It might be a option I guess if it is tuned correctly to a certain frequency. I'm thinking that it a enclosure thing as to the way it is sounding. You would think 380w would be ample enough power to blow you away so I don't think this calls for another amp investment. I hopefully will get my taxes done this weekend and will see if I get any type of refund back and will go from there. I have personal property taxes coming up on the car in June and am tight on money right now while trying to pay the credit card off for all this audio stuff I bought
Looks like I'm going to have to decide to either get a custom sealed box made or ported box made. Not sure which is better for me...
Ok...Just got back from my grandmas and spent a hour unscrewing everything off the back of the box, pulling the box out, dragging out that other ported box I had, unscrewing and taking out my subs out of the sealed box, and then putting everything back in the car. I stuck the sealed box in the back of the garage for now. It does give me more of a punch and bass response but I'm still not satisified in it. Maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow on the way to work after I give my ears a chance to calm down. Certain songs did however make me want to run for cover and sounded better than the sealed box. I just want more harder hitting bass and don't know how to get it now. Oh well...Why I thought the 15 would give me more bump and bass response. I'm going to still test out this ported box for a couple days. It's good that I have it. It's better than spending $100.00 for a box and find out it sucked and lose all that money. This gives me a idea as to what a ported box might sound like. It might be a option I guess if it is tuned correctly to a certain frequency. I'm thinking that it a enclosure thing as to the way it is sounding. You would think 380w would be ample enough power to blow you away so I don't think this calls for another amp investment. I hopefully will get my taxes done this weekend and will see if I get any type of refund back and will go from there. I have personal property taxes coming up on the car in June and am tight on money right now while trying to pay the credit card off for all this audio stuff I bought
Looks like I'm going to have to decide to either get a custom sealed box made or ported box made. Not sure which is better for me...120 Hz is too high for your high pass on the fronts in my opinion. try 70-80 Hz to pull the bass image up front or lower if those kenwoods can handle it. the 6x9's could be muddying up your imaging as well. if it was me i would either attenuate them very low or pull them out completely to let the bass come into the cabin better and keep the focus on your front soundstage. unless those 6x9's have their own enclosres the bass from the subs is probably disrupting them and causing them to distort. jut fade to the front or disconnect them and watch them move to see and hear the difference.
i still say a good dedicated midbass is the way to go along with your new tweeters. of course you will need passive crossovers to or go all active up front. and yes, this all does indeed affect the mid-bass and percieved sub-bass.
i still say a good dedicated midbass is the way to go along with your new tweeters. of course you will need passive crossovers to or go all active up front. and yes, this all does indeed affect the mid-bass and percieved sub-bass.
I just have always liked having speakers in the rear...It gives more highs and clarity. Plus, if you have a passenger in the seat next to you, their legs block the sound from the 6 1/2's and you are only left with tweeters on that side. So it's good to give some high from the rear I think. I'll try the fader thing and see how it sounds just up front. I think I tried it before by not hooking the RCA's up and just having the fronts going but I don't think I liked it that much. Made feel I was missing something still.
I think the Kenwood's come with a inline passive crossover, from what I read anyways. If it doesn't, you can purchase crossovers individually?
I think the Kenwood's come with a inline passive crossover, from what I read anyways. If it doesn't, you can purchase crossovers individually?
If you have a closed hatchback with a reinforced ceiling like this:
http://automobiles.honda.com/images/2008/civic-coupe/exterior-gallery/gal_lg14.jpg
Any sub will perform very poor unless a very custom bandpass enclosure design and integration job is done.
http://automobiles.honda.com/images/2008/civic-coupe/exterior-gallery/gal_lg14.jpg
Any sub will perform very poor unless a very custom bandpass enclosure design and integration job is done.
a 400 watt amp will only put out 200 watts at half volume, so at quarter volume its putting out 100 watts....then you have to penetrate the backseat and rear deck also....
get a bigger amp or cut out the rear deck, or design a box that will fire through the rear speaker holes, then make a fiberglass mold to mount your rear speakers between the speaker holes.
good candidate for a bandpass.
get a bigger amp or cut out the rear deck, or design a box that will fire through the rear speaker holes, then make a fiberglass mold to mount your rear speakers between the speaker holes.
good candidate for a bandpass.
Flyin11 said:
Sounds like you could benefit from going to component speakers and mounting the tweets in the A-pillars
Problem solved, at least with any blockage of high frequencies.I don't like using WinISD for figuring out frequency response...it doesn't represent accurately a lot of the time what's going on with the vehicle's cabin gain.
An amp should in theory make 1/10 watts at half volume, so a 400w amp should make 40 at half volume.
Why don't you tune your ported box the way you want. Get winISD and compare it to the sealed box because you know what that sounds like. Enclosure makes more difference than anything with a sub. Other sub programs can factor cabin gain, but how does one know the gain of their car? IMO flat response is kind of useless in a car anyway; nobody listens to it that way.
Another thing to do is lay the deadening on your doors. Put MDF and deadening on the door and seal it, that will help bass in front. Front needs to get down to 70 or so, that is the problem with many systems including mine until I get to working on it again. That is likely why your 6x9 in back make it sound better because they will get lower and add some punch.
Why don't you tune your ported box the way you want. Get winISD and compare it to the sealed box because you know what that sounds like. Enclosure makes more difference than anything with a sub. Other sub programs can factor cabin gain, but how does one know the gain of their car? IMO flat response is kind of useless in a car anyway; nobody listens to it that way.
Another thing to do is lay the deadening on your doors. Put MDF and deadening on the door and seal it, that will help bass in front. Front needs to get down to 70 or so, that is the problem with many systems including mine until I get to working on it again. That is likely why your 6x9 in back make it sound better because they will get lower and add some punch.
Clipped said:
I'm usually up at about 80% volume so the amp is putting out around 380w: http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/voltdropthroughsystem.swf
Plus, I tested it with a multi-meter and saw the reading myself. There is no way that a amp that is rated at around 400w would only be putting out 100w. That's crazy. I do like the idea of maybe a bandpass box however. I never really thought about it as I was always under the impression it was bad for rock music but it could very well be the answer for me. Something else to think about.
Good picture Eva....Exactly what a Civic trunk looks like and that's the way mine is.
jol:
Isn't winISD just a bunch of pictures of graphs and charts and stuff? I don't know how to read that technical layout stuff...but where can you download it?
I didn't read all the posts in this thread.
But I used to have a 15W4 myself...AWESOME SUB.
Even though it is rated at 200 watts rms...it can handle MUCH MORE. I used to give my 15W4 600-800 watts DAILY. And it sounded very good on all types of music. The kick drums were very prevalent as well as the bass guitar.
I'd say if you can get one than buy it. 400 watts is nothing for this sub.
What kind of enclosure do you have right now??? two 12s have slightly more cone area than a single 15.
Saying sealed is best for rock and ported sounds like crap is bullsh!t.
People say ported sucks and sounds horrible because they have never heard a properly designed ported enclosure. My old 15W4 was in a ported box and kicked *** on all music and put most systems twice the size to shame
But I used to have a 15W4 myself...AWESOME SUB.
Even though it is rated at 200 watts rms...it can handle MUCH MORE. I used to give my 15W4 600-800 watts DAILY. And it sounded very good on all types of music. The kick drums were very prevalent as well as the bass guitar.
I'd say if you can get one than buy it. 400 watts is nothing for this sub.
What kind of enclosure do you have right now??? two 12s have slightly more cone area than a single 15.
Saying sealed is best for rock and ported sounds like crap is bullsh!t.
People say ported sucks and sounds horrible because they have never heard a properly designed ported enclosure. My old 15W4 was in a ported box and kicked *** on all music and put most systems twice the size to shame
I guess the other question about a bandpass box is if my subs are made for them. It looks like they are only recommended to be installed in either a sealed or ported enclosure. I see nothing in the instruction manual about a bandpass cu footage size and no #4 (Which is a bandpass enclosure) enclosure recommended on Crutchfield's site. I have found different sized chambers and stuff for bandpass boxes and just don't want to stick my subs in there and have them blow or sound terrible cause the footage is not correct and they aren't designed for it to begin with. Might just have to go for a ported enclosure if I want something like that but then again I can't find a ported one at 1.79cu ft as recommended per chamber. Might have to have one built...
Flyin... there's a poison goin' on here...
You need to slow down a little as it appears that you're changing too many things at once to get good results...
Let's separate the truth from the fluff:
1. A 400 watt amp will put out 400 watts only if there is enough preamp voltage to drive it to maximum ouput. If I install a 2000 watt amp and turn the gain down to minimum, I'll be lucky to see 100 watts out of the amp. I think you said before that your head unit can do 5 V, but it's only doing that when the volume control is cranked up and the source is recorded at a high level.
2. Bandpass would be a *great* solution, but before you go off and start building it, try this: put your back seat down, disconnect the back 6x9s and see if it sounds better. If so, a bandpass may be the solution because this means that your rear deck and seat are blocking *too much* of the air movement... that's what eva is talking about...
3. Part of the problem may be that the overall phase of the rear speakers and your front speakers is different. This will cause some cancellation that may cause severe dips and peaks in your frequency response. Disconnecting the rear speakers will allow you to identify if that's the case...
4. azinboi3644 makes a good point... there is too much religion going on in reference to sealed vs. ported. Both have their good points and bad points... a badly designed sealed enclosure is going to sound bad as is a badly designed ported enclosure. Your original enclosure should have worked fine, though... no reason to go and redesign the whole thing when there may be a number of other issues going on.
5. You're spending too much time with calculations... the difference between 300 and 400 watts is only about 1.25 dB, which I'd be surprised if you could identify reliably. And you *definitely* won't hear the difference between 400 and 380 watts... it's less than 0.25 dB. Focus on what *sounds* good.
Here's what I'd do next (YMMV):
1. Change the high pass on the front speakers to about 80 Hz.
2. Disconnect the rear speakers.
3. Put the back seat down.
4. Set the low pass on your sub amp to 60-70 Hz.
5. If your head unit can adjust the output to the sub amp directly, set it flat.
6. Set the gain on your sub amp to about 75%
Now, listen to some music at your normal listening level. If the front speakers are breaking up or distorting, you really need to get some newer, better speakers for the front or you may consider adding a power amp for the front speakers. If the bass is not loud enough, try adjusting the gain higher and play with the xover a little. If it sounds good, then try hooking up the back speakers again and see how it sounds. If it's worse, then try changing the polarity of the back speakers and see if that helps.
Once you've got it sounding good, put the back seat back up and see how it sounds.
Relax and enjoy the journey... you'll find your way.
smiles,
Jamie
You need to slow down a little as it appears that you're changing too many things at once to get good results...
Let's separate the truth from the fluff:
1. A 400 watt amp will put out 400 watts only if there is enough preamp voltage to drive it to maximum ouput. If I install a 2000 watt amp and turn the gain down to minimum, I'll be lucky to see 100 watts out of the amp. I think you said before that your head unit can do 5 V, but it's only doing that when the volume control is cranked up and the source is recorded at a high level.
2. Bandpass would be a *great* solution, but before you go off and start building it, try this: put your back seat down, disconnect the back 6x9s and see if it sounds better. If so, a bandpass may be the solution because this means that your rear deck and seat are blocking *too much* of the air movement... that's what eva is talking about...
3. Part of the problem may be that the overall phase of the rear speakers and your front speakers is different. This will cause some cancellation that may cause severe dips and peaks in your frequency response. Disconnecting the rear speakers will allow you to identify if that's the case...
4. azinboi3644 makes a good point... there is too much religion going on in reference to sealed vs. ported. Both have their good points and bad points... a badly designed sealed enclosure is going to sound bad as is a badly designed ported enclosure. Your original enclosure should have worked fine, though... no reason to go and redesign the whole thing when there may be a number of other issues going on.
5. You're spending too much time with calculations... the difference between 300 and 400 watts is only about 1.25 dB, which I'd be surprised if you could identify reliably. And you *definitely* won't hear the difference between 400 and 380 watts... it's less than 0.25 dB. Focus on what *sounds* good.
Here's what I'd do next (YMMV):
1. Change the high pass on the front speakers to about 80 Hz.
2. Disconnect the rear speakers.
3. Put the back seat down.
4. Set the low pass on your sub amp to 60-70 Hz.
5. If your head unit can adjust the output to the sub amp directly, set it flat.
6. Set the gain on your sub amp to about 75%
Now, listen to some music at your normal listening level. If the front speakers are breaking up or distorting, you really need to get some newer, better speakers for the front or you may consider adding a power amp for the front speakers. If the bass is not loud enough, try adjusting the gain higher and play with the xover a little. If it sounds good, then try hooking up the back speakers again and see how it sounds. If it's worse, then try changing the polarity of the back speakers and see if that helps.
Once you've got it sounding good, put the back seat back up and see how it sounds.
Relax and enjoy the journey... you'll find your way.
smiles,
Jamie
I'm fine....I'm not jumping the gun. I haven't purchased anything else...Was just looking for advice. Like I said before, it's kind of lucky I had this extra ported box, has showed me that it might be the way to go cause it has given me a little bit of a kick but I want more bass out of my system without having to buy another amp as this one already puts out more power than needed so I'm good with this one.
1. Yes, I get all the preamp voltage details. Everyone has said and I agree, that the gain is not a volume control but a sensitivity tool. So how did that become something of a volume control knob? My gain is easily past the halfway mark so that right there would tell you it's more than half power.
2. I'm not lowering the seats and leaving it down. I don't have tinted windows and I'm not going to do that and then pull up to a stop light and have people be able to see everything I have right there in plain view mounted on the box. That's security issue and I'm not have my stuff stolen like that. It's perfect with the seats closed like it's suppose to be. No need to disconnect the 6X9's. Tried turning the fade to the fronts and I don't like it like that. It takes away from my highs like they are .
3. How would they be different when they are hooked up correctly?...positive to positive, negative to negative. They aren't out of phase.
4. Yeah, I know...Everyone has their opinions about what's right for what music and all. The main issue has been me wanting more bass and how to get that. Not changing things on the high side and trying things in that area. That is why I was entertaining the ideas of either a ported or bandpass box. My highs are fine. I just got my tweeters today and will have to figure out how to modify those to get them to fit but once those are in, I can turn my highs up to the level I want.
5. Trying to focus on what sounds good and that'swhy I'm trying to figure out how to get more bass out of the subs I have. I'm just trying to figure out to get there with what I have.
1. Change the high pass on the front speakers to about 80 Hz.
I can try this again although I tried it before and it tuned out the quality of the highs too much.
2. Disconnect the rear speakers.
No need...Nothing is wrong with the rears
3. Put the back seat down.
Not going to do it that way for the reason given above.
4. Set the low pass on your sub amp to 60-70 Hz.
It's already there...It's a little between the 60 and 120 mark on the amp. It only has a 60hz mark and then goes to a 120hz mark. Nothing in between...Not much to really do about that as you don't know EXACTLY what it set to. One thing I didn't like about the amp.
5. If your head unit can adjust the output to the sub amp directly, set it flat.
What do you mean? Like the sub level? I have to have that at 3 or 5...otherwise I don't get a good bass response.
6. Set the gain on your sub amp to about 75%
It's already at that point from what I can gather....
1. Yes, I get all the preamp voltage details. Everyone has said and I agree, that the gain is not a volume control but a sensitivity tool. So how did that become something of a volume control knob? My gain is easily past the halfway mark so that right there would tell you it's more than half power.
2. I'm not lowering the seats and leaving it down. I don't have tinted windows and I'm not going to do that and then pull up to a stop light and have people be able to see everything I have right there in plain view mounted on the box. That's security issue and I'm not have my stuff stolen like that. It's perfect with the seats closed like it's suppose to be. No need to disconnect the 6X9's. Tried turning the fade to the fronts and I don't like it like that. It takes away from my highs like they are .
3. How would they be different when they are hooked up correctly?...positive to positive, negative to negative. They aren't out of phase.
4. Yeah, I know...Everyone has their opinions about what's right for what music and all. The main issue has been me wanting more bass and how to get that. Not changing things on the high side and trying things in that area. That is why I was entertaining the ideas of either a ported or bandpass box. My highs are fine. I just got my tweeters today and will have to figure out how to modify those to get them to fit but once those are in, I can turn my highs up to the level I want.
5. Trying to focus on what sounds good and that'swhy I'm trying to figure out how to get more bass out of the subs I have. I'm just trying to figure out to get there with what I have.
1. Change the high pass on the front speakers to about 80 Hz.
I can try this again although I tried it before and it tuned out the quality of the highs too much.
2. Disconnect the rear speakers.
No need...Nothing is wrong with the rears
3. Put the back seat down.
Not going to do it that way for the reason given above.
4. Set the low pass on your sub amp to 60-70 Hz.
It's already there...It's a little between the 60 and 120 mark on the amp. It only has a 60hz mark and then goes to a 120hz mark. Nothing in between...Not much to really do about that as you don't know EXACTLY what it set to. One thing I didn't like about the amp.
5. If your head unit can adjust the output to the sub amp directly, set it flat.
What do you mean? Like the sub level? I have to have that at 3 or 5...otherwise I don't get a good bass response.
6. Set the gain on your sub amp to about 75%
It's already at that point from what I can gather....
Flyin...
I'm not asking you to drive around with the back seat down... I certainly wouldn't do that either. I'm suggesting that you do this at home for testing purposes to try to figure out what's going on. Same thing with the 6x9 speakers. If it turns out that your sub box is fine with the back seat down, you may want to look into either venting the rear deck to let the sound waves out of the trunk or possibly the bandpass solution with dedicated vents into the interior of your car.
Phase is... um... complicated. Imagine that you're standing next to a perfectly smooth lake. You throw a rock into the lake and it makes ripples. Now throw another rock... it also makes ripples. At some places in the lake, the ripples are going to help to make a bigger ripple and at other locations, it's going to cancel out as the ripple from rock 1 is going to be peaking and the ripple from rock 2 is going to be dipping. Sound waves are like ripples, so the same thing will happen with sound in your car. I'm asking you to disconnect the back speakers temporarily to try to see if they may be part of the problems you've mentioned here... no back ripples. In some cases, separate drivers (woofer and tweeter set) can sound better if the polarity is reversed to one driver due to phase problems at the driver seat.
What do you mean by "tuned out the quality of the highs" when you set the high pass to 80 Hz? Does that mean "got a bunch of distortion"?
I'm not asking you to drive around with the back seat down... I certainly wouldn't do that either. I'm suggesting that you do this at home for testing purposes to try to figure out what's going on. Same thing with the 6x9 speakers. If it turns out that your sub box is fine with the back seat down, you may want to look into either venting the rear deck to let the sound waves out of the trunk or possibly the bandpass solution with dedicated vents into the interior of your car.
Phase is... um... complicated. Imagine that you're standing next to a perfectly smooth lake. You throw a rock into the lake and it makes ripples. Now throw another rock... it also makes ripples. At some places in the lake, the ripples are going to help to make a bigger ripple and at other locations, it's going to cancel out as the ripple from rock 1 is going to be peaking and the ripple from rock 2 is going to be dipping. Sound waves are like ripples, so the same thing will happen with sound in your car. I'm asking you to disconnect the back speakers temporarily to try to see if they may be part of the problems you've mentioned here... no back ripples. In some cases, separate drivers (woofer and tweeter set) can sound better if the polarity is reversed to one driver due to phase problems at the driver seat.
What do you mean by "tuned out the quality of the highs" when you set the high pass to 80 Hz? Does that mean "got a bunch of distortion"?
Not distortion but it lowers the highs. It's not as loud and crystal as it is at the higher frequencies...
I get where everyone is coming from about trying to get sound into the car but I'm not going to cut holes in the rear to add vents or anything like that. I don't want to tear up my car. I want to keep everything as factory looking and clean as I can without tearing up stuff. Just saying that if I did consider getting a bandpass box, it would just be sitting in the trunk. No vents connected to the ports or anything like that. That was the whole point of this thread for me...Was to try and find out how I could get more bass out of what I already had. Not try and re tune everything. We'll see what happens though...
I get where everyone is coming from about trying to get sound into the car but I'm not going to cut holes in the rear to add vents or anything like that. I don't want to tear up my car. I want to keep everything as factory looking and clean as I can without tearing up stuff. Just saying that if I did consider getting a bandpass box, it would just be sitting in the trunk. No vents connected to the ports or anything like that. That was the whole point of this thread for me...Was to try and find out how I could get more bass out of what I already had. Not try and re tune everything. We'll see what happens though...
Part of your bass punch comes from the mids. Deadening could help, better drivers, and/or more power on them. You will have issues if you can't get under 100Hz with the mids. You do have an amp on them right? HUs can't do the job.
As far as the subs, the most you can get would likely be a ported box (designed for the subs in size/port) to maximize bass. They are relatively easy and produce high spl. If the current one you have is about the right size you might just change the ports to get it tuned right. Then play with location, often the rear of trunk and rear firing is best. You could also work on EQing it right, but having drivers setup to be happy to make the frequencies you need makes it much easier and less necessary.
As far as the subs, the most you can get would likely be a ported box (designed for the subs in size/port) to maximize bass. They are relatively easy and produce high spl. If the current one you have is about the right size you might just change the ports to get it tuned right. Then play with location, often the rear of trunk and rear firing is best. You could also work on EQing it right, but having drivers setup to be happy to make the frequencies you need makes it much easier and less necessary.
Hi Flyin...
If you're not going to vent into the cabin, then you need to ignore the bandpass option. It won't give you what you're looking for.
jol50- he doesn't have an amp on the high pass drivers... he's running them off of the head unit.
I don't see a good solution here as the subs in the trunk are only able to transmit through the 6 x 9s in the rear deck with no other passage to the cabin of the car.
If you're not going to vent into the cabin, then you need to ignore the bandpass option. It won't give you what you're looking for.
jol50- he doesn't have an amp on the high pass drivers... he's running them off of the head unit.
I don't see a good solution here as the subs in the trunk are only able to transmit through the 6 x 9s in the rear deck with no other passage to the cabin of the car.
I do have a amp for my other 4 speakers My highs are running off a 4 channel Alpine MRP-M450 amp. It's rated at 40w X at 4ohms. Have had it in since about mid January. The Alpine amp doesn't have a crossover dial so you can't change the crossover on it but the instruction manual said when it is set to high pass it is preset at 80hz. The bass boost is disabled whe HP is on and I have it on High Pass.
The ported box I have in there now is just one for testing...I'll keep using it for a while and see how it sounds with different songs but I'll probably be looking for a new enclosure soon as I want one the right size and cubic footage recommended for the subs...
My highs are running off a 4 channel Alpine MRP-M450 amp. It's rated at 40w X at 4ohms. Have had it in since about mid January. The Alpine amp doesn't have a crossover dial so you can't change the crossover on it but the instruction manual said when it is set to high pass it is preset at 80hz. The bass boost is disabled whe HP is on and I have it on High Pass.The ported box I have in there now is just one for testing...I'll keep using it for a while and see how it sounds with different songs but I'll probably be looking for a new enclosure soon as I want one the right size and cubic footage recommended for the subs...
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