Clean crossovers - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > General Interest > Car Audio

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 23rd January 2008, 11:58 AM   #1
Clipped is offline Clipped  Thailand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: home
Send a message via MSN to Clipped
Default Clean crossovers

anyone know of any really clean crossovers that will keep the original signal as clean as possible?

I just pulled the eq/xover hooked up to my RFX8140 and the sound blew me away when i hooked it up straight to the amp.

the best one ive had so far is an old rockford AF4/HD but its limping on 1 channel now, and needs new hybrid cards.

tried every soundstream xover, but lost fidelity.

tried an AC eqx before , but was really noisy.

any suggestions?
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2008, 02:02 PM   #2
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
diyAudio Member
 
Eva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Near the sea
Send a message via MSN to Eva
The problem is not the crossover electronics themselves (except in case of some real junk) but the alignment of the filters, which is a very complex topic.

If you want neutral sounding crossovers, get a DSP (either car-audio for several thousand $ or PA like Behringer DCX2496 for $250) and work out your own filter alignments with proper delays/polarities, and use your own EQ in a driver per driver basis.
__________________
I use to feel like the small child in The Emperor's New Clothes tale
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2008, 03:08 PM   #3
Clipped is offline Clipped  Thailand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: home
Send a message via MSN to Clipped
was thinking of the alpine cda 9887, but afraid i'll lose sound quality vs the rockford rfx8140.

Behringer good?
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2008, 11:46 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
I've installed a 9887 in a Tundra Crewmax and used the Imprint software program, etc. I think it sounds incredible. I have not had an after market system for 15yrs however so I may not have a very impressive point of reference.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2008, 04:00 AM   #5
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
diyAudio Member
 
Eva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Near the sea
Send a message via MSN to Eva
Last week I had to set up a system using an alpine 9887. It was two way front speakers and rear sub (as usual).

The wost of all about 9887 is the control interface, it's really depressing and frustrating. The interface in previous series was messy too, but not that terrible. Menu layouts and key sequences to access functions such as delays, crossover and parametric EQ will make you wish to smash the 9887 with a big hammer.

On the other hand, it features the 6 usual delays (althouth the linked adjustment mode of the previous versions, called "bass focus", is missing!!! damn fools!!! this mode was very useful to find front to sub delay...) It also features 3 crossovers with adjustable frequencies and 6/12/18/24dB/oct slopes but it still doesn't allow to set the type of crossover (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, etc...) and the type employed is just undefined! The parametric EQ of the previous versions is also there, with the usual stupid limitations (you can't set two bands too close and there are only 3 Q choices).


A $250 behringer DCX2496 can be modified for car use and has like 5 times more functionality than the most complete DSP headunit. It has 3 inputs and 6 outputs. Outputs have independent adjustable phase-shifters and low-pass and high-pass filters (6/12/18/24/48 dB/oct, Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley). Up to 9 parametric EQs can be set on each input and output (CPU power allows up to 36 simultaneous with 3-way stereo LR24 filtering). Inputs and outputs have independent delays, routing and limiters!! (no more blown speakers) Control interface is nice to the point that this DSP is used by embedded non-adjustable DSP designers of other companies to find out optimum system parameters in a comfortable way. It has everything you would dream to have (but will never find) in a car DSP.

Some other pro-audio digital crossovers are even better (and some expensive ones are actually worse!!) but they cost $500 to $5000 rather than $250 (see Xilica, BSS, dbx, BBE, etc...)
__________________
I use to feel like the small child in The Emperor's New Clothes tale
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2008, 08:20 AM   #6
Clipped is offline Clipped  Thailand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: home
Send a message via MSN to Clipped
i messed around with a 9887 in a customers car once, all i can remember was overshooting what i was looking for and having to figure out how i got there in the first place.

i remember there was a big behringer hype at carsound about a year ago...maybe i can find a dc/dc convertor to hook it up.

you know what the voltage requirements are for that unit?

as for alpines, do the 9886/5/4/3 have both a low and hi xover?
i tried downloading the manuals but everytime i try they are corrupt....the general info says 'no' but i think that would be kinda stupid on alpines behalf.

maybe i'll try an AC 2xs...any experience?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2008, 03:44 PM   #7
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
diyAudio Member
 
Eva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Near the sea
Send a message via MSN to Eva
Some of the 985x used to have a "3-way" or "4ch+sub" switch that could be toggled through a small opening on the bottom plate. It seems as if their DSP was not powerful enough for midrange bandpass filtering and they were doing extra stuff in the analog domain. I don't know if the 988x still have that switch. It may be included only in some versions.

I used both AudioControl 2xs and 4xs in the past and I wouldn't ever consider them again. While these filters do what they are supposed to do, they are very expensive and are plain analog with basic functionality and no real time adjustments. Once you discover what can be achieved with the functions found on pro-audio digital crossovers you start laughing at old-school stuff like that. Of course, not everybody knows how to use delays and parametric EQ on a driver per driver basis, but learning is possible.
__________________
I use to feel like the small child in The Emperor's New Clothes tale
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2008, 02:01 AM   #8
Clipped is offline Clipped  Thailand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: home
Send a message via MSN to Clipped
how did the 2xs sound, was it close enough to the original headunit?

i just need something to cut my subs for right now, i have a bass cube that i use to eq the sub...but still no match for an octave eq.

im going fullrange on my mids/hi's and gonna try going passive this time around.

im going to try some really weird stuff to get the imaging up...but in theory should work, i came across these 3" midranges that image REALLY well, they go exactly where you point them.

going for manual time alignment this time around.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2008, 03:47 PM   #9
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
diyAudio Member
 
Eva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Near the sea
Send a message via MSN to Eva
You can produce various image feelings by applying individual EQ and delay to each driver. It has more to do with the way the radiations from all drivers interact and sum up in the listening position than with the drivers themselves.

As I said, the 2xs and 4xs were doing their job, PSU was regulated and isolated, noise floor was reasonably low and it seems that they were producing nice phase matched outputs unlike other filters (as it should be expected from any state variable circuit). But later I learnt that I was not getting good summing because I was not considering the phase shift from the drivers themselves (and from the delays due to different distances to the listener). Then I started to do my own active filters with driver and distance phase shift compensation. Then I discovered DSP. They call it the learning curve...
__________________
I use to feel like the small child in The Emperor's New Clothes tale
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2008, 11:53 PM   #10
jol50 is offline jol50  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Only clean old school ones I ever used were old nakamichi and LP. I have a G190 alpine now that seems ok, but this system is not up to snuff yet so hard to say if it is great. I think I'll move to digital somehow, but what I will miss most is having x-over and gains in hand. I hate trunk mount stuff with a passion, or HUs you can't do anything with while driving. Should at least be able to fiddle with basic stuff on the road.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shop Clean Out IMSTOOPID Swap Meet 27 16th November 2009 01:49 AM
How are active crossovers so simple/clean? tcpip Multi-Way 56 8th February 2004 08:54 AM
clean ac karma Everything Else 6 30th May 2003 10:06 PM
Clean DVD cristiano Digital Source 0 20th February 2003 03:23 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:47 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2