i remember when i was 17 or so and drove Ford Taurus one of my friends commented that the stereo in my car is worth more than the car itself ... that wasn't true. in reality the car was worth about $2000 and the stereo was worth maybe about $800
and yet "stereo worth more than the car" seems like my destiny because i may now have a different car and a different stereo but their relationship is still largely the same. and my friends still find it as difficult to understand as ever. in fact now the stereo actually is worth more than the car.
so i was trying to figure out if this situation makes any sense and to answer that question i asked myself where is the point of diminishing returns in cars and in car audio systems ? i think i know where that point for cars is, but where that point for stereos is i dont know.
for cars (new cars) to me it seems diminishing returns begin to set in at 30 - 35 grand and set in completely by 70 grand. 30 - 35 grand corresponding to cars like Acura TL and Infinity G35 and 70 grand corresponding to something like BMW M5.
now what do i mean by that ? i mean if you drive an M5 and a G35 you will be able to tell which car is better without knowing which one costs more. now the same should hold true for the sound systems if they aren't way past the point of diminishing returns (excuse my terminology).
and once you're beyond that point you may listen to two (equally well designed) systems and not know which one is better even if one is twice as expensive as the other. i don't think a person would be able to tell whether BMW M5 or Mercedes S65 is better even though one of the two cars is almost 3 times more expensive than another.
so where is that point of diminishing returns for a car stereo ?
and yet "stereo worth more than the car" seems like my destiny because i may now have a different car and a different stereo but their relationship is still largely the same. and my friends still find it as difficult to understand as ever. in fact now the stereo actually is worth more than the car.
so i was trying to figure out if this situation makes any sense and to answer that question i asked myself where is the point of diminishing returns in cars and in car audio systems ? i think i know where that point for cars is, but where that point for stereos is i dont know.
for cars (new cars) to me it seems diminishing returns begin to set in at 30 - 35 grand and set in completely by 70 grand. 30 - 35 grand corresponding to cars like Acura TL and Infinity G35 and 70 grand corresponding to something like BMW M5.
now what do i mean by that ? i mean if you drive an M5 and a G35 you will be able to tell which car is better without knowing which one costs more. now the same should hold true for the sound systems if they aren't way past the point of diminishing returns (excuse my terminology).
and once you're beyond that point you may listen to two (equally well designed) systems and not know which one is better even if one is twice as expensive as the other. i don't think a person would be able to tell whether BMW M5 or Mercedes S65 is better even though one of the two cars is almost 3 times more expensive than another.
so where is that point of diminishing returns for a car stereo ?
I don't see it that way at all, I think $20 speaker can sound as good as any in some cases. If I were to spend more money, it would be on more stuff to swap not to use. Some things you need to spend on, like a HU and any processing because they generate the quality signal you need to start with. I don't think money buys you quality, just the likeliness of it....something expensive is more likely to be good.
jol50 said:
well some things just plain cost money, for example:
* neodymium ( magnet material )
* copper ( wire )
* casting parts ( aluminum heatsinks, aluminum and magnesium speaker baskets )
* gold, silver and platinum ( contacts )
* CNC machining steel ( speaker motors )
* titanium, carbon fiber ( voice coil formers and diaphragms )
* brass ( connectors )
* capacitors, batteries
the more powerful and complex you build the system the more of everything you will have to use and the costs just keep adding up.
if you decide to replace all the speaker cables, lay down some good RCA cables, good power cable, upgrade the alternator, the big three, install a pair of extra batteries and fuse everything properly you will have spent a grand before you even got to speakers or electronics
you cant deny that building a good system costs money ... question is at which point does it become not worth it ?
I guess it depends on what you mean by good system. A $20 mid or tweeter might work great in an SQ system that does not need to handle over 100wrms in typical use. You may try 10 of them before you find the one that works in your application though, that is what I mean by likeliness. It may not last as long or it might. And amps, I am not that familiar with newer amps but I know they tend to sound good, not be a durable, and are cheap to buy. If you do lots of processing as is typical now does the sound matter? As long as it makes X watts you need and has low distortion what difference besides looks does it make? I might be full of it, but I bet if you bought a $800 HU and ran the right selection of cheap everything else a system could work very well for SQ/LSQ. I have not seen any proof that super-duper copper wire that corrodes and expensive RCA cables make any difference at all in performance. I think many of these things like 8v HUs are just marketing and nothing more. Many items might only be useful in special applications like serious SPL or specific installs/equipment needs. Again I don't use enough newer amps on a daily basis to know enough about them, but it sure looks that way.
I'd say the law of diminishing returns applies better to cars than to audio products. With a car you can say this cheap car is much faster but then say it rides harder, is noisier, seats are not as nice....the whole package added up often comes out in line with total value, diminishing as you go up and cache gets added in. With a speaker, it works or it don't....it does not have to do any other thing, and some cheap speakers sound great. Many high dollar home speakers use reasonably priced drivers. If you spent average <$125 a driver you should have a very high quality and capable system that would be hard to improve upon. The motor basket could be made out of solid gold, but would that improve the sound? I'd say a quality HU is much more important than a driver anyway as far as spending.
I've had systems with pyramid subs that sounded great and performed great for what I needed, though those particular ones did not last that long I wore them out running at xmax all the time. If you want the very max performance then no the cheapest driver may not do obviously, but I have a hard time seeing how you must have the most expensive. In particular when processing and installation have such a large effect on driver performance. And on top of all that you put the stuff in a car, about the worst audio environment there is. Sometimes a driver/amp with a poor response actually works better in a car because of that.
I'd say the law of diminishing returns applies better to cars than to audio products. With a car you can say this cheap car is much faster but then say it rides harder, is noisier, seats are not as nice....the whole package added up often comes out in line with total value, diminishing as you go up and cache gets added in. With a speaker, it works or it don't....it does not have to do any other thing, and some cheap speakers sound great. Many high dollar home speakers use reasonably priced drivers. If you spent average <$125 a driver you should have a very high quality and capable system that would be hard to improve upon. The motor basket could be made out of solid gold, but would that improve the sound? I'd say a quality HU is much more important than a driver anyway as far as spending.
I've had systems with pyramid subs that sounded great and performed great for what I needed, though those particular ones did not last that long I wore them out running at xmax all the time. If you want the very max performance then no the cheapest driver may not do obviously, but I have a hard time seeing how you must have the most expensive. In particular when processing and installation have such a large effect on driver performance. And on top of all that you put the stuff in a car, about the worst audio environment there is. Sometimes a driver/amp with a poor response actually works better in a car because of that.
you speak of processing as if its free. i am using Premier 980 head unit by the way.
when i speak of expensive system i don't mean a system that uses brax amplifiers or focal beryllium tweeters. i'm talking about a system that simply is so complex that the cost adds up.
i believe in using decent quality throughout. speakers, amplifiers, cables, connectors etc ... i like it all to be decent which means the best i can get without spending too much. the problem is that i end up using a lot of these things and it just begins to add up ...
by the way i do firmly believe that processing is the most important part of the system i just don't know any car audio gear that is any good for it.
if i can secure the trunk from breaking in and then save up some money i would like to install a windows comptuer to act as a source and studio digital crossovers to replace my noisy audiocontrol units.
but before i can do any of this i have to first figure out if that would be cool or retarded ? im wondering if there is any point such that improving beyond it is a mental illness ?
i mean there are guys in the gym who are 250 pounds of solid muscle and keep taking steroids because they think they need to get bigger ... they think they're striving for greatness but everybody else thinks they're nutjobs or fags. this trap is easy to fall into ... i want to make sure that its not what is happening to me with my car stereo.
when i speak of expensive system i don't mean a system that uses brax amplifiers or focal beryllium tweeters. i'm talking about a system that simply is so complex that the cost adds up.
i believe in using decent quality throughout. speakers, amplifiers, cables, connectors etc ... i like it all to be decent which means the best i can get without spending too much. the problem is that i end up using a lot of these things and it just begins to add up ...
by the way i do firmly believe that processing is the most important part of the system i just don't know any car audio gear that is any good for it.
if i can secure the trunk from breaking in and then save up some money i would like to install a windows comptuer to act as a source and studio digital crossovers to replace my noisy audiocontrol units.
but before i can do any of this i have to first figure out if that would be cool or retarded ? im wondering if there is any point such that improving beyond it is a mental illness ?
i mean there are guys in the gym who are 250 pounds of solid muscle and keep taking steroids because they think they need to get bigger ... they think they're striving for greatness but everybody else thinks they're nutjobs or fags. this trap is easy to fall into ... i want to make sure that its not what is happening to me with my car stereo.
I would also say that if someone is speaking about costs related to paying retail prices, then I can see the costs rising way too fast.
But in regards to this:
"i just don't know any car audio gear that is any good for it."
I can tell you that although there are only a few out there that are real processors, they're great at what they do.
I owned a few REAL DSPs from Clarion years ago and now one from Alpine (full 5.1 Dolby Digital channels w/ 31 bands each!) and the sound is SWEEET with good source material (digital input).
But if you mean like the (average) EQs with so-called processing then yeah, definitely they're not worth it so much and add noise.
Well, just my $.05 from playing with and installing a lot of car stereo equipment over the years.
But in regards to this:
"i just don't know any car audio gear that is any good for it."
I can tell you that although there are only a few out there that are real processors, they're great at what they do.
I owned a few REAL DSPs from Clarion years ago and now one from Alpine (full 5.1 Dolby Digital channels w/ 31 bands each!) and the sound is SWEEET with good source material (digital input).
But if you mean like the (average) EQs with so-called processing then yeah, definitely they're not worth it so much and add noise.
Well, just my $.05 from playing with and installing a lot of car stereo equipment over the years.
MartyM said:I would also say that if someone is speaking about costs related to paying retail prices, then I can see the costs rising way too fast.
But in regards to this:
"i just don't know any car audio gear that is any good for it."
I can tell you that although there are only a few out there that are real processors, they're great at what they do.
I owned a few REAL DSPs from Clarion years ago and now one from Alpine (full 5.1 Dolby Digital channels w/ 31 bands each!) and the sound is SWEEET with good source material (digital input).
But if you mean like the (average) EQs with so-called processing then yeah, definitely they're not worth it so much and add noise.
Well, just my $.05 from playing with and installing a lot of car stereo equipment over the years.
my requirement for going with DSP is to have a 24bit deep digital link between source and the DSP. any other configuration is going to add noise.
i really wanted to use DSP in the car because i use it at home but i could not find anything decent so ended up running crossovers in analog.
at home i run the signal digitally from the source to the DSP and then from the DSP to a dedicated DAC. i could do without a dedicated DAC in the car but i refuse to have extra D/A and A/D conversion stages.
also i refuse to invest into proprietary technologies. at home i am using gear that communicates over industry standard S/PDIF or AES/EBU links and thats the only way i would do it in the car ... i will never spend on some digital gear that only works with digital gear from that same company.
"at home i am using gear that communicates over industry standard S/PDIF or AES/EBU links and thats the only way i would do it in the car "
Yes, that's exactly what it is. Actually the Alpine unit does all processing in the digital domain for media and uses non-proprietary connections with exception of the volume control. That's more of a convenience if you have an Ai-Net head unit.
Actually my XM radio is analog due to it's design so that does use the ADC. But there have been ways around that too...
But any TOSLINK source will work, and volume/DSP/Time correction/Crossovers/DD decoding/PCM controls are done via the control unit.
Sounds so NIIIICE and noise free! Clarity & S/N are sweeet!
Yes, that's exactly what it is. Actually the Alpine unit does all processing in the digital domain for media and uses non-proprietary connections with exception of the volume control. That's more of a convenience if you have an Ai-Net head unit.
Actually my XM radio is analog due to it's design so that does use the ADC. But there have been ways around that too...
But any TOSLINK source will work, and volume/DSP/Time correction/Crossovers/DD decoding/PCM controls are done via the control unit.
Sounds so NIIIICE and noise free! Clarity & S/N are sweeet!
I was on a board talking SQ and a guy said next time he will get something like this, it was cheaper: http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm
To me it is not worth going that far in a car, I don't spend that much time there anymore. The better my system sounds the more crude the source sounds...and that aggravates me. So I keep messing with it, but make more lateral moves rather than just better in my current car. My latest is to find a light weight sub setup.
To me it is not worth going that far in a car, I don't spend that much time there anymore. The better my system sounds the more crude the source sounds...and that aggravates me. So I keep messing with it, but make more lateral moves rather than just better in my current car. My latest is to find a light weight sub setup.
jol50 said:
yep, im using two of them
http://www.box.net/shared/static/rzqc45n480.jpg
MartyM said:
how about some links ? you sparked my interest
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