I bought a pair of Dayton RS180-4's and would like to know which tweeters would be a good fit for them for a two-way setup. Searching this and other forums I found several people using Dayton RS28A's, but I don't think I can fit 4" tweeters in my '94 Camry. I'm thinking I could go 3" max on the door pillar or 2" on the sail panel, using ABS pipe to mount them. I can either buy or build passive crossovers.
Driving them with a Kenwood KAC-649S, 30 W × 2 + 80 W × 1. I use the 80 W x 1 for a Klipschorn Promedia home theater subwoofer that I gutted, leaving just the ported box and 4 ohm speaker. The HU is a Blaupunkt Ventura CD83 with a single set of preamp outputs.
I have questions about the crossovers - like where to cross, L-pads, & how steep the slope should be - but until I start looking at tweeters I won't know what to ask. I'm a newbie looking to spend <$50 for a pair of tweeters and I'm just looking to have a little better sound than the factory Toyota premium sound. Is this realistic? I'll be in Taipei next month so I might be able to save some money buying tweeters at the Tang Band store there, if that's any help.
Thanks
Driving them with a Kenwood KAC-649S, 30 W × 2 + 80 W × 1. I use the 80 W x 1 for a Klipschorn Promedia home theater subwoofer that I gutted, leaving just the ported box and 4 ohm speaker. The HU is a Blaupunkt Ventura CD83 with a single set of preamp outputs.
I have questions about the crossovers - like where to cross, L-pads, & how steep the slope should be - but until I start looking at tweeters I won't know what to ask. I'm a newbie looking to spend <$50 for a pair of tweeters and I'm just looking to have a little better sound than the factory Toyota premium sound. Is this realistic? I'll be in Taipei next month so I might be able to save some money buying tweeters at the Tang Band store there, if that's any help.
Thanks
Depends on the sound you want. I like a clear mellow tweeter than does not scream at me ever, so I like softdomes. 1" is good size. The Seas are good tweeters and phillips are too. There are others. A metal or hard dome will have more top end. PE and Madisound seem to be the popular places. Also go to SSA board and in the speakers section search for tweeters/etc. Some good threads there about components and what to use. Meo magnet tweeters are really small, the neo seas surface mount is the one I like. There are a couple surface ones that are easier to install in a car. I even looked at a mid dome PE has that can get pretty high, might have been a 2". The RS woofers are pretty good.
Vifa DX19TD05-04? These are soft domes for $46.40/pair at Madisound:
DX19TD05-04
I can't hear >7.5KHz in my left ear and can barely hear a TV's horizontal output at 16KHz with my right ear, so I'm not to concerned about really high frequencies.
Would these Vifa's be a dumb choice? Fs is 875; could I cross them with the RS180-4's around 2200?
DX19TD05-04
I can't hear >7.5KHz in my left ear and can barely hear a TV's horizontal output at 16KHz with my right ear, so I'm not to concerned about really high frequencies.
Would these Vifa's be a dumb choice? Fs is 875; could I cross them with the RS180-4's around 2200?
If it fits I think it would work, but maybe not as well as a larger tweeter. I have been told to use a 1-1+" tweeter to reach the 7". The mid will get directional at higher frequency and so you need a larger tweeter than can get lower. There is a great ssa thread on 2way but I don't have time to look for it. This is one of the most popular ones for cars and not priced too high: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_270_324&products_id=1466
The Morel and LPG are also popular with the SQ guys (small with grill). Some use that little vifa too. I have used radio shack 1" domes back when they sold their own with great results, so I don't think you need to go crazy if you just want them to sound good. Plus I crossed them over pretty high but here you can't...meaning if the tweeter has an issue in the lower ranges you will hear it.
They do tell me to go active though, and get a good HU with crossovers and that do T/A and EQ. That way you can adjust and get the most out of components. They don't like passive, but of course they can work if you play with them. Those HU start at about 3 bills as well....maybe some day I will get one. The SQ guys will always tell you to get the most expensive though, so you just have to run with what you want to afford.
You should also deaden your mids so you get more mid bass out of them. Try to put a mdf ring and deaden the door a lot. I didn't do mine and it is not good, just no time to get the garage heated up and work on it yet.
Here, check this thread and the one linked at the start: http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10564&st=0&p=279091&#entry279091
The Morel and LPG are also popular with the SQ guys (small with grill). Some use that little vifa too. I have used radio shack 1" domes back when they sold their own with great results, so I don't think you need to go crazy if you just want them to sound good. Plus I crossed them over pretty high but here you can't...meaning if the tweeter has an issue in the lower ranges you will hear it.
They do tell me to go active though, and get a good HU with crossovers and that do T/A and EQ. That way you can adjust and get the most out of components. They don't like passive, but of course they can work if you play with them. Those HU start at about 3 bills as well....maybe some day I will get one. The SQ guys will always tell you to get the most expensive though, so you just have to run with what you want to afford.
You should also deaden your mids so you get more mid bass out of them. Try to put a mdf ring and deaden the door a lot. I didn't do mine and it is not good, just no time to get the garage heated up and work on it yet.
Here, check this thread and the one linked at the start: http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10564&st=0&p=279091&#entry279091
OK, I think you guys are saying to use neodymium magnet tweeters because they can be made smaller. So I went looking for them and found:
MDT12 1" textile dome tweeter
2.13" square which is a perfect size, Fs 1000 Hz, 1800 to 25000 HZ, but they're 8 ohms. Could I use this crossover with my RS180-4's?
Dayton XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Crossover
...or would the tweeters not be loud enough?
MDT12 1" textile dome tweeter
2.13" square which is a perfect size, Fs 1000 Hz, 1800 to 25000 HZ, but they're 8 ohms. Could I use this crossover with my RS180-4's?
Dayton XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Crossover
...or would the tweeters not be loud enough?
The crossover is set up that way so it should work, otherwise if you use different ohm speakers than what the crossover is made for it will cutoff at a different frequency. As far as the 8 ohm tweeter, it should not be as big a difference as you would think because 8 ohm speakers are more efficient. It could be an issue if you want loud tweeters or mount them such that they will not be heard well (covered, aimed away from you, into your legs, etc). I have used 8ohm with no problem many times, but I don't like loud tweeters anyway. You could always cut the mid down a little but I don't think you would have to. That is why everyone says go active so you can adjust each amp for gain, and adjust crossover points easily too. You may have to fiddle with the crossover to get it right but there are calculators on the net to make it easy if you have to change a cap or something. Every car is different so expect with passive that you may have to tune it some.
The neos are so nice for install and that looks like a nice tweeter.
The neos are so nice for install and that looks like a nice tweeter.
I'm curious why we don't have more roll-your-own separates posts in this forum...
Kevin asked:
You're quite correct, crossover questions can only be general until you have a tweeter selected. With your beautiful RS's and a pair of decent tweeters, expect excellent results.
The SEAS that jol50 suggested looks good, I haven't noticed that one before. An advantage is the relatively flat impedance curve that will make crossover performance more predictable and simpler. Nothing wrong with that Morel, either.
I've had very good results with the surface mount version of this Cheapie Peerless, mated with a pair of Audax 6" HP170's.
Here are some general crossover considerations...
1) Consider rolling your own. The crossover plus your speaker presents a gradual impedance change that reduces output over the stopband. If it ain't made for you speaker, the output is less predictable.
2) A 2nd order crossover like the one you posted will have a definite "crossover frequency", but the response around that frequency will vary with impedance changes.
3) A 1st order crossover will have a definite slope/response, but "crossover frequency" will change with impedance changes.
4) As jol50 mentioned, your RS mounted into a door will have a natural roll off due to off-axis response. I believe that will be in the 3kHz range.
If the woofer has an ideal flat response, you could let them go without crossovers, and only filter the tweeters. However, they tend to get nasty above 5kHz or so. If you add a 2nd order filter at 3kHz, your result would roughly be a 4th order filter.
That doesn't mean you need a 4th order filter on the tweeters, but keep it in mind when looking at response graphs. Staggered slopes can work well.
Once tweeters and filter frequency are chosen, you can begin to look at relative outputs from each driver and design L-pads if needed.
Food for thought.
Tim
Kevin asked:
You're quite correct, crossover questions can only be general until you have a tweeter selected. With your beautiful RS's and a pair of decent tweeters, expect excellent results.
The SEAS that jol50 suggested looks good, I haven't noticed that one before. An advantage is the relatively flat impedance curve that will make crossover performance more predictable and simpler. Nothing wrong with that Morel, either.
I've had very good results with the surface mount version of this Cheapie Peerless, mated with a pair of Audax 6" HP170's.
Here are some general crossover considerations...
1) Consider rolling your own. The crossover plus your speaker presents a gradual impedance change that reduces output over the stopband. If it ain't made for you speaker, the output is less predictable.
2) A 2nd order crossover like the one you posted will have a definite "crossover frequency", but the response around that frequency will vary with impedance changes.
3) A 1st order crossover will have a definite slope/response, but "crossover frequency" will change with impedance changes.
4) As jol50 mentioned, your RS mounted into a door will have a natural roll off due to off-axis response. I believe that will be in the 3kHz range.
If the woofer has an ideal flat response, you could let them go without crossovers, and only filter the tweeters. However, they tend to get nasty above 5kHz or so. If you add a 2nd order filter at 3kHz, your result would roughly be a 4th order filter.
That doesn't mean you need a 4th order filter on the tweeters, but keep it in mind when looking at response graphs. Staggered slopes can work well.
Once tweeters and filter frequency are chosen, you can begin to look at relative outputs from each driver and design L-pads if needed.
Food for thought.
Tim
Thanks Jol50 and Tim for your responses. It seems like having an active crossover will be less expensive - and less hassle - than buying/modifying or building/modifying passive crossovers. This is available for $55 shipped:
Coustic XM6
High pass for the tweeters and band pass for the mids. My Kenwood has a low pass switch for the subwoofer but the Coustic has a pot for the low pass so I'd probably be better off using it and setting the Kenwood's filter flat. With only one set of preamp outputs from the Blaupunkt HU I'll have to run everything off of it, but with no rear speakers that's OK; I can just reduce the subwoofer's output level to whatever sounds best.
In addition to the Kenwood under the driver's seat I have a 50 watt RMS Pyramid 2 channel amp mounted on the inside firewall. So I'll have to figure out which amp to use with which drivers. The sub will use one of the Kenwood's outputs bridged and the mids or tweeters will use the other set of Kenwood outputs.
Now I can start looking at the tweeters you guys have recommended, keeping in mind impedance curves in addition of frequency response and resonant frequency.
So...$60 for the mids, ~$60 for tweets, $60 for the crossover, $50 for the used Kenwood amp and $30 for the Pyramid amp, plus lots of RCA cables: <$300 for everything because the HU and subwoofer were dumpster-dived. The 15-year-old Toyota "Premium Sound" was getting pretty tired and it didn't have a CD player. I'll wait to by a new HU when there's a bigger variety of solid state-only HU's; no electro-mechanical parts, just SD and/or USB. Those will have to get real cheap soon.
One bad thing about getting old is your hearing gets worse. I need the tweeters to be on-axis to even hear high notes, so just getting a decent set of new coax speakers wouldn't work.
Thanks again.
Kevin
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