when i compare the actual volume level of 2 different amps...
orion 250hcca and 2150sx....the 2150 seems to be louder.
why is this?
one amp is meant for low loads and the other's meant for higher loads...the 250 is rated at 800 watts @1 ohm mono and the 2150 for 600watts @4 ohm mono.
eventhough mathematically the 250 should be louder...it isnt...the 2150 is...
is voltage opposed to current the more motive force of the two?
or is it that, the closer a trasistor gets to its maximum voltage rating the more watts it puts out?
thanx
orion 250hcca and 2150sx....the 2150 seems to be louder.
why is this?
one amp is meant for low loads and the other's meant for higher loads...the 250 is rated at 800 watts @1 ohm mono and the 2150 for 600watts @4 ohm mono.
eventhough mathematically the 250 should be louder...it isnt...the 2150 is...
is voltage opposed to current the more motive force of the two?
or is it that, the closer a trasistor gets to its maximum voltage rating the more watts it puts out?
thanx
Well if one does 800W but has to be loaded with 1R to achieve that, then assuming an ideal power supply, it will put out 400W with 2R and 200W with 4R.
So if you were listening with a 4R speaker the other amp will put out a lot more.
However, due to the supply not being perfect, it may be that with 2R it puts out 600W, and with 4R it puts out 400W. So then it would be a lot closer to the other amp.
So if you were listening with a 4R speaker the other amp will put out a lot more.
However, due to the supply not being perfect, it may be that with 2R it puts out 600W, and with 4R it puts out 400W. So then it would be a lot closer to the other amp.
Hi
There is also damping factor. If you have both amps playing same level of power, the one that is driving 4 ohm speaker will sound louder, because amp has better load control on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor
There is also damping factor. If you have both amps playing same level of power, the one that is driving 4 ohm speaker will sound louder, because amp has better load control on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor
luka said:
If one has higher gain, it will of course also sound louder.
With the same gain and same input level, they will, by definition, sound equally loud (in the same speaker), as long as neither clips.
If you increase the input level, and one clips before the other, then the one that clips later can sound louder, if you have enough input level to drive it or if it has more gain.
Jan Didden
one amp has a 1 ohm load, the other has a 4 ohm load to maximize the rated power for each...
i know better than to stick the same ohm speaker per amp.
the 250 and 2150 both use the same outputs and fets and the boards are almost identical except for small differences in the powersupply section....(originally they used the same fets, but i had to change the fets in the 2150 to weaker ones in the 2150)
i havent thoroughly checked the components in the opamp paths, because i sold the 250 a while back.
the 250 has +-22 volt rails and the 2150 has +-36 volt rails
eventhough they should put out around the same power at the optimum ohm, the 2150 is louder.
the 250 has more current but less voltage
the 2150 has less current but more voltage
the 2150 is louder....and the difference is quite distinguishable.
the 250 plays the lows better
the 2150 plays quick drum beats tighter.
there must be an explanation for this...
or could it be that, the 250 requires a better current source?
this is quite a surprise to me , because i always thought the 250 was louder...but it isnt.
come to think of it, i bet its a trade off for a specific range of frequencies for each amp...lower frequency bass requires higher current.
maybe an analogy between torque and horsepower could clarify things?
i know better than to stick the same ohm speaker per amp.
the 250 and 2150 both use the same outputs and fets and the boards are almost identical except for small differences in the powersupply section....(originally they used the same fets, but i had to change the fets in the 2150 to weaker ones in the 2150)
i havent thoroughly checked the components in the opamp paths, because i sold the 250 a while back.
the 250 has +-22 volt rails and the 2150 has +-36 volt rails
eventhough they should put out around the same power at the optimum ohm, the 2150 is louder.
the 250 has more current but less voltage
the 2150 has less current but more voltage
the 2150 is louder....and the difference is quite distinguishable.
the 250 plays the lows better
the 2150 plays quick drum beats tighter.
there must be an explanation for this...
or could it be that, the 250 requires a better current source?
this is quite a surprise to me , because i always thought the 250 was louder...but it isnt.
come to think of it, i bet its a trade off for a specific range of frequencies for each amp...lower frequency bass requires higher current.
maybe an analogy between torque and horsepower could clarify things?
i think you need to read over the specs for the old orion amps and become more acquianted with them before you come to anymore conclusions.
the 250hcca requires a 1 ohm load
the 2150sx requires a 4 ohm load
mono for both
i dont know how much clearer i can be than this.
i cant see a point in using a dummy load to test actual output
i prefer to test 'sound output'...and what it 'really' sounds like.
the 250hcca requires a 1 ohm load
the 2150sx requires a 4 ohm load
mono for both
i dont know how much clearer i can be than this.
i cant see a point in using a dummy load to test actual output
i prefer to test 'sound output'...and what it 'really' sounds like.
Clipped said:
Well, if you use different speakers there's the issue of different speaker sensitivities. You're still comparing apples with pliers.
If those two amps have the same gain, and the speakers the same sensitivity, they will sound equally loud. Period.
The sensitivity takes into account how many volts you need across that 4 or 8 or 2 ohms to sound at a certain level with a specified input level.
Now, if the speaker is low-ohmic and the amp cannot deliver the required current, it will clip. But that's another issue than sounding more or less loud.
If the amps have the same gain, and one speaker has 6dB less sensitivity, it will sound half as loud.
If one amp has 3dB less gain but the speaker has 3dB more sensitivity, they would still sound the same loudness-wise.
I think you get the point I'm trying to make?
Jan Didden
Are both amps and speaker systems running the same crossovers and supplying the same frequency response?
For example, if one amp is running just sub-woofers and one is running full-range, the full-range system will sound louder and the sub-only will sound quiet – albeit with more/similar bass.
There are a lot of variables when running two different amps and two different speaker systems.
Also remember that power amps and their power supplies tend to be less efficient running low-Z loads. If you measure two amps delivering 250WRMS, one into 1-ohm and one into 4-ohms, the amp running 1-ohm will typically consume much more current from the 12V source.
It seems as if two amps delivering the exact same power into different loads would require the exact same input power, but efficiency falls quickly as the load drops. Once you’re in the 20-to-100+ amp range at 12V, your cable, power transformer, and device losses become significant. Class-D is an exception, of course.
For example, if one amp is running just sub-woofers and one is running full-range, the full-range system will sound louder and the sub-only will sound quiet – albeit with more/similar bass.
There are a lot of variables when running two different amps and two different speaker systems.
Also remember that power amps and their power supplies tend to be less efficient running low-Z loads. If you measure two amps delivering 250WRMS, one into 1-ohm and one into 4-ohms, the amp running 1-ohm will typically consume much more current from the 12V source.
It seems as if two amps delivering the exact same power into different loads would require the exact same input power, but efficiency falls quickly as the load drops. Once you’re in the 20-to-100+ amp range at 12V, your cable, power transformer, and device losses become significant. Class-D is an exception, of course.
janeman, i used the same subs for each amp just wired differently.
these two amps do not sound the same, the one with 36v rails is louder...im not imagining this
Dcpreamp, i think we have the same idea regarding efficiency.
the amps are (were) setup the same way.
i dont believe it either.
i think ill just blame it on my charging system, not able to keep up voltage AND amperage at the same time.
but i think we could all agree that the more efficient amp will be louder?
these two amps do not sound the same, the one with 36v rails is louder...im not imagining this
Dcpreamp, i think we have the same idea regarding efficiency.
the amps are (were) setup the same way.
i dont believe it either.
i think ill just blame it on my charging system, not able to keep up voltage AND amperage at the same time.
but i think we could all agree that the more efficient amp will be louder?
Hi
There is one more thing. Let say that two amps drive same speaker each. One has supply voltage let say +/-30 and other one has +/-70. Same output power, but sound will be "louder" with the one with higher supply voltage as it has more power (voltage) reserve. I could be way off, but I think that there can be difference in sound you hear, even if scope says it is not.
There is one more thing. Let say that two amps drive same speaker each. One has supply voltage let say +/-30 and other one has +/-70. Same output power, but sound will be "louder" with the one with higher supply voltage as it has more power (voltage) reserve. I could be way off, but I think that there can be difference in sound you hear, even if scope says it is not.
Clipped said:janeman, i used the same subs for each amp just wired differently.
these two amps do not sound the same, the one with 36v rails is louder...im not imagining this
Dcpreamp, i think we have the same idea regarding efficiency.
the amps are (were) setup the same way.
i dont believe it either.
i think ill just blame it on my charging system, not able to keep up voltage AND amperage at the same time.
but i think we could all agree that the more efficient amp will be louder?
What do you mean by more efficient amp?
Jan Didden
Where do I start?
So many here are confused.
Let's start by converting those power figures into volts and amps.
800W into 1r0 = 28.28Vpk and 28.28Apk into that 1r0 load.
600W into 4r0 = 49Vpk and 12.2Apk into that 4r0 load.
Note, that both Vpk are above Vrail so this confirms that the amplifiers are in bridged mode.
Next, an amplifier's performance deteriorates as the load resistance/impedance reduces.
A solid state amplifier can work into ANY resistive load that is equal to or HIGHER than the minimum resistance/impedance.
Both these amps will work into an 8ohm reactive load and both will perform as well as expected for a CAR type amp working into a high impedance load.
Both amps will work into a 4ohm reactive load. The performance of the 2150 (4ohm capable) will probably deteriorate more than the 250 (1ohm capable). The 250 will work into a 2ohm load and performance will deteriorate a bit more. And when asked to work into a 1ohm load the performance is going to be at it's lowest. By performance I mean any combination of the following: lower/higher distortion, lower higher damping factor, poorer/better control of the driver, poorer/better current delivery on transients, more/less sag on the supply rails and probably quite a few other characteristics I have forgotten about.
Now let's go back to the Vpk delivered by these amps.
To get from input signal to output signal the amplifiers need voltage gain. Both these amps are probably set for a different gain. That will affect apparent volume. To take account of this the gain for the two amps should be set so that an identical input signal takes each amp to it's maximum output voltage. Lets say 1Vac at input, then the 250 should be set to 20 times (=+26db) and the 2150 should be set to 36.7 times (=30.8db).
Now, set up the same speaker with the alternative impedance connections: parallel parallel for 1ohm and series parallel for 4ohms.
Try listening to those combinations. Then measure the maximum undistorted sinewave output voltage for each amplifier. How do the the measurements compare to the specifications? How do the supply rails voltages hold up when delivering power? Your answers may be in the results.
Finally. run the 4//4 from one amp and the other 4//4 from a second amp. That is an effective load of 2ohms (reactive) on both amps but select an amplifier that is 1ohm capable to get acceptable performance from your amp/speaker combination.
So many here are confused.
Let's start by converting those power figures into volts and amps.
800W into 1r0 = 28.28Vpk and 28.28Apk into that 1r0 load.
600W into 4r0 = 49Vpk and 12.2Apk into that 4r0 load.
Note, that both Vpk are above Vrail so this confirms that the amplifiers are in bridged mode.
Next, an amplifier's performance deteriorates as the load resistance/impedance reduces.
A solid state amplifier can work into ANY resistive load that is equal to or HIGHER than the minimum resistance/impedance.
Both these amps will work into an 8ohm reactive load and both will perform as well as expected for a CAR type amp working into a high impedance load.
Both amps will work into a 4ohm reactive load. The performance of the 2150 (4ohm capable) will probably deteriorate more than the 250 (1ohm capable). The 250 will work into a 2ohm load and performance will deteriorate a bit more. And when asked to work into a 1ohm load the performance is going to be at it's lowest. By performance I mean any combination of the following: lower/higher distortion, lower higher damping factor, poorer/better control of the driver, poorer/better current delivery on transients, more/less sag on the supply rails and probably quite a few other characteristics I have forgotten about.
Now let's go back to the Vpk delivered by these amps.
To get from input signal to output signal the amplifiers need voltage gain. Both these amps are probably set for a different gain. That will affect apparent volume. To take account of this the gain for the two amps should be set so that an identical input signal takes each amp to it's maximum output voltage. Lets say 1Vac at input, then the 250 should be set to 20 times (=+26db) and the 2150 should be set to 36.7 times (=30.8db).
Now, set up the same speaker with the alternative impedance connections: parallel parallel for 1ohm and series parallel for 4ohms.
Try listening to those combinations. Then measure the maximum undistorted sinewave output voltage for each amplifier. How do the the measurements compare to the specifications? How do the supply rails voltages hold up when delivering power? Your answers may be in the results.
Finally. run the 4//4 from one amp and the other 4//4 from a second amp. That is an effective load of 2ohms (reactive) on both amps but select an amplifier that is 1ohm capable to get acceptable performance from your amp/speaker combination.
The 250 should produce more power but running into a low impedance load, it's going to be less efficient.
To have an audible difference between the amps, there has to be a 'significant' difference in power. To make such a difference, I'd think the rail voltage on the 250 was dropping significantly. It's was likely drawing more current from the charging system which would have made it more difficult to maintain regulated the rail voltage.
You mentioned that it did better on the lows. This could have been due to the one or two impedance peaks. The peaks would have lightened the load and therefore allowed the rail voltage to remain higher. At higher frequencies, the load impedance would have been closer to 1 ohm which would have caused the rail voltage to drop.
To have an audible difference between the amps, there has to be a 'significant' difference in power. To make such a difference, I'd think the rail voltage on the 250 was dropping significantly. It's was likely drawing more current from the charging system which would have made it more difficult to maintain regulated the rail voltage.
You mentioned that it did better on the lows. This could have been due to the one or two impedance peaks. The peaks would have lightened the load and therefore allowed the rail voltage to remain higher. At higher frequencies, the load impedance would have been closer to 1 ohm which would have caused the rail voltage to drop.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.