My second tonearm is ready; you can see pictures in my gallery. It is based on excellent idea patented by Frank Schroeder. My second tonearm is so different from the original, I do not call it a clone, I call it a mutant.
The main difference is that it does not hang by a thread. The arm hangs by magnetic field. The thread keeps the distance between magnets and supplies some of antiskate force. Why did I turn “Schroeder” upside down? Because with a heavy arm wand my clone had stability problem. To ease the stiffness of the suspension the string is attached to the magnet in the way that the pivot point is close to magnet gap. In my first, ultra light clone the center of gravity of arm wand is above the pivot point. In my “mutant” with heavy ebony wand the center of gravity of the wand is below the pivot point.
Frank Schroeder has a secret how to make his tonearms not wiggly and not stiff. Cloners who asked him privately disappeared from discussions on the Internet, even their posts disappeared from archives. I did not want Frank to use his magic wand on me and shut me up, beside the cloners honor would not let me ask. It would be like a defeated hacker asking for a password. I shaped ends of the magnets, one conical, one semi cylindrical. That solved the wiggly arm problem many cloners reported.
The second, more audible difference is that I added a second pair of magnets to correct the antiskate force. Not quite as good implementation as Carlo Morsiani’ but the same reason. One very small magnet is on the end of counterweight shaft and a bigger one is fastened to adjustable bras wire arm. To hold the magnets in place I used small pieces of latex tubing. The magnets are pulling on each other, that adds extra antiskate force where it is most needed. The system is not perfect but the antiskate force decreases as the skating force decreases. Distortions caused by skating force are not audible any more. Before, either the beginning or the end of LP sounded bad. When the needle is lowered down it gently skates out into the starting groove.
To adjust the antiskate I made my own test record, I sanded an old LP to a smooth finish. The record sounds like hsshshhshsshh and gives the needle a bit more drag than uncut LP. I know that only the tip of the needle is working and it is not the same as the needle working in modulated groove but it works for me. I have also used uncut spaces between tracks on Hi-Fi News test LP and of course I have used good music and my ears.
There are other small differences: wiring, counterweight, headshell, my aluminum wand shafts are filled with fluid and lead powder etc…
Finally I am happy with the way my tonearm operates though it is a pain to adjust it. Too many parameters affect each other. The sound is excellent!
Recently I learned about Morsiani tonearm. If I had to start from the beginning I would buy or clone Morsiani.
An amateur has the right to be wrong, when a pro is wrong he has to be the Pope to be right.
Marek Stojek
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/view.mpl?UserImages=21150
The main difference is that it does not hang by a thread. The arm hangs by magnetic field. The thread keeps the distance between magnets and supplies some of antiskate force. Why did I turn “Schroeder” upside down? Because with a heavy arm wand my clone had stability problem. To ease the stiffness of the suspension the string is attached to the magnet in the way that the pivot point is close to magnet gap. In my first, ultra light clone the center of gravity of arm wand is above the pivot point. In my “mutant” with heavy ebony wand the center of gravity of the wand is below the pivot point.
Frank Schroeder has a secret how to make his tonearms not wiggly and not stiff. Cloners who asked him privately disappeared from discussions on the Internet, even their posts disappeared from archives. I did not want Frank to use his magic wand on me and shut me up, beside the cloners honor would not let me ask. It would be like a defeated hacker asking for a password. I shaped ends of the magnets, one conical, one semi cylindrical. That solved the wiggly arm problem many cloners reported.
The second, more audible difference is that I added a second pair of magnets to correct the antiskate force. Not quite as good implementation as Carlo Morsiani’ but the same reason. One very small magnet is on the end of counterweight shaft and a bigger one is fastened to adjustable bras wire arm. To hold the magnets in place I used small pieces of latex tubing. The magnets are pulling on each other, that adds extra antiskate force where it is most needed. The system is not perfect but the antiskate force decreases as the skating force decreases. Distortions caused by skating force are not audible any more. Before, either the beginning or the end of LP sounded bad. When the needle is lowered down it gently skates out into the starting groove.
To adjust the antiskate I made my own test record, I sanded an old LP to a smooth finish. The record sounds like hsshshhshsshh and gives the needle a bit more drag than uncut LP. I know that only the tip of the needle is working and it is not the same as the needle working in modulated groove but it works for me. I have also used uncut spaces between tracks on Hi-Fi News test LP and of course I have used good music and my ears.
There are other small differences: wiring, counterweight, headshell, my aluminum wand shafts are filled with fluid and lead powder etc…
Finally I am happy with the way my tonearm operates though it is a pain to adjust it. Too many parameters affect each other. The sound is excellent!
Recently I learned about Morsiani tonearm. If I had to start from the beginning I would buy or clone Morsiani.
An amateur has the right to be wrong, when a pro is wrong he has to be the Pope to be right.
Marek Stojek
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/view.mpl?UserImages=21150
Very, very, very nice.
I especially like the way you have built the main post assembly - this could be adapted to a number of projects.
I have lately become interested in trying an update on the Irish Vestigal tonearm from the early 80s (?). It would require a pivot point that could be easliy implemented using your design.
How do you handle VTA?
IMO there is a huge difference between ripping off a designer and developing a design idea to the next level. I think your work, although based on Schroder's idea, is a step beyond his and is not a clode at all. After all, the guy at Ford who came up with the V8 engine just married 2 four-bangers together, but he (or his estate) holds the longest-lasting patent in engineering.
Bravo!
Jess
I especially like the way you have built the main post assembly - this could be adapted to a number of projects.
I have lately become interested in trying an update on the Irish Vestigal tonearm from the early 80s (?). It would require a pivot point that could be easliy implemented using your design.
How do you handle VTA?
IMO there is a huge difference between ripping off a designer and developing a design idea to the next level. I think your work, although based on Schroder's idea, is a step beyond his and is not a clode at all. After all, the guy at Ford who came up with the V8 engine just married 2 four-bangers together, but he (or his estate) holds the longest-lasting patent in engineering.
Bravo!
Jess
Thanks James and Jess.
I have no “on the fly” VTA adjustment. There is an Allen grub screw in the aluminum ring, the 2.5” long main post slides up and down manually. On the picture the main post is not visible; the mutant is at its lowest position.
Some details that may interest you: I cut the main post and the lower horizontal support from one piece of aluminum on a lathe. I installed the upper support and brass pillar on lower support and than spinning the whole assemble on the lathe I drilled a hole for the upper magnet. This way both magnets are perfectly on axis.
With my rather primitive machine the biggest challenge was drilling a hole for the magnet exactly in the center of the aluminum wand shaft.
Marek
I have no “on the fly” VTA adjustment. There is an Allen grub screw in the aluminum ring, the 2.5” long main post slides up and down manually. On the picture the main post is not visible; the mutant is at its lowest position.
Some details that may interest you: I cut the main post and the lower horizontal support from one piece of aluminum on a lathe. I installed the upper support and brass pillar on lower support and than spinning the whole assemble on the lathe I drilled a hole for the upper magnet. This way both magnets are perfectly on axis.
With my rather primitive machine the biggest challenge was drilling a hole for the magnet exactly in the center of the aluminum wand shaft.
Marek
Hi Marek,
Congrats on your implementation of the bearing principle. Btw, if I really had a way to make people disappear, it be most likely certain politicians that would vanish, but never audio diyers ;-)
On a more technical note: the reason for choosing the hanging versus the "upside down" arrangement is not only dictated by the desire to achieve utmost stability(self aligning, self centering), but also by the bearing geometry that will compensate for the otherwise inescapable susceptability to warp wow when using a bearing with a pivot point above(or below) record level. using the hanging arrangement, any movement upwards will result in the bearing assembly/armwand moving ever so slightly backwards as well, compensating for the shortening of the eff. length that is caused by a warp. You have to realize that the bending point of the thread is NOT the pivot point!
Your arrangement will emphasize the warp wow, but, at the same time, reduce the effects of any magnet misalignment.
Keep up the good work and good luck with a future Morsiani project,
Frank
Congrats on your implementation of the bearing principle. Btw, if I really had a way to make people disappear, it be most likely certain politicians that would vanish, but never audio diyers ;-)
On a more technical note: the reason for choosing the hanging versus the "upside down" arrangement is not only dictated by the desire to achieve utmost stability(self aligning, self centering), but also by the bearing geometry that will compensate for the otherwise inescapable susceptability to warp wow when using a bearing with a pivot point above(or below) record level. using the hanging arrangement, any movement upwards will result in the bearing assembly/armwand moving ever so slightly backwards as well, compensating for the shortening of the eff. length that is caused by a warp. You have to realize that the bending point of the thread is NOT the pivot point!
Your arrangement will emphasize the warp wow, but, at the same time, reduce the effects of any magnet misalignment.
Keep up the good work and good luck with a future Morsiani project,
Frank
Hi Frank,
Thanks for your reply. I am glad that it was not your black magic. Maybe now posts by InDaGroove and others will reappear. It is interesting that only you and two brave Canadians commented on my tonearm. There was one other guy but he only dared to contact me via email.
On technical points you are absolutely right. My arrangement did move the pivot point up (about 1/4”) in relation to record surface. I compensated it a bit by moving the head of the headshell up and lowering the tonearm a bit. I am not going to argue on this mater as I do not know the subject well.
Marek
And now for the benefit of future cloners:
Remember what Frank said about the geometry of the arm. Also, it is much less work to make Franks clone than my mutant.
To drill the magnet, use 1/32” and 1/16” carbide drills from mcmaster.com part No 2841A92 and 2841A94. Drill the hole with 1/16”bit for the knot first. On the opposite side drill 1/16” hole to the depth of about 1/3 of the thickness of the magnet. Finally drill through with the 1/32” bit. This way the fragile 1/32” drill bit will have a shorter distance to go. Be careful when you drill a hole in the screw holding the thread, as brass or aluminum is more likely to break the drill. It takes a few minutes to drill the hole.
Mcmaster.com also has all the metal you will need.
After you tie the knots pull on the thread very hard to test if knots do not slip through the holes. God have mercy on your cart should the thread slip through later on…
For Shelter cartridge I made the wand from ebony wood. After cutting a piece of wood in half length wise, I turned and flipped the top piece to increase stability of the laminate. Before I glued the wood together I made 2 parallel 1/32”deep grooves in each piece from one end to the other. When I put the wood together the grooves formed 2 guiding holes. This way I was able to drill two 1/16” holes trough the wand for left and right channel wires separately. The ebony is very oily so before gluing it together the surface has to be degreased with alcohol. If you opt for drilling one hole for both wires it is possible to use one solid piece of wood as bigger diameter drill won’t drift sideways so much.
For my Shure cart I made ultra light wand out of pernambuco wood drilled with ¼” bit and I filled the inside with balsa wood.
I hope I did not bore you with details, any questions?
Thanks for your reply. I am glad that it was not your black magic. Maybe now posts by InDaGroove and others will reappear. It is interesting that only you and two brave Canadians commented on my tonearm. There was one other guy but he only dared to contact me via email.
On technical points you are absolutely right. My arrangement did move the pivot point up (about 1/4”) in relation to record surface. I compensated it a bit by moving the head of the headshell up and lowering the tonearm a bit. I am not going to argue on this mater as I do not know the subject well.
Marek
And now for the benefit of future cloners:
Remember what Frank said about the geometry of the arm. Also, it is much less work to make Franks clone than my mutant.
To drill the magnet, use 1/32” and 1/16” carbide drills from mcmaster.com part No 2841A92 and 2841A94. Drill the hole with 1/16”bit for the knot first. On the opposite side drill 1/16” hole to the depth of about 1/3 of the thickness of the magnet. Finally drill through with the 1/32” bit. This way the fragile 1/32” drill bit will have a shorter distance to go. Be careful when you drill a hole in the screw holding the thread, as brass or aluminum is more likely to break the drill. It takes a few minutes to drill the hole.
Mcmaster.com also has all the metal you will need.
After you tie the knots pull on the thread very hard to test if knots do not slip through the holes. God have mercy on your cart should the thread slip through later on…
For Shelter cartridge I made the wand from ebony wood. After cutting a piece of wood in half length wise, I turned and flipped the top piece to increase stability of the laminate. Before I glued the wood together I made 2 parallel 1/32”deep grooves in each piece from one end to the other. When I put the wood together the grooves formed 2 guiding holes. This way I was able to drill two 1/16” holes trough the wand for left and right channel wires separately. The ebony is very oily so before gluing it together the surface has to be degreased with alcohol. If you opt for drilling one hole for both wires it is possible to use one solid piece of wood as bigger diameter drill won’t drift sideways so much.
For my Shure cart I made ultra light wand out of pernambuco wood drilled with ¼” bit and I filled the inside with balsa wood.
I hope I did not bore you with details, any questions?
Well Marek, I am probaly to be counted in the category you specify as making the disappearing act.. Just for the record, I don't consider myself as disapeard if I spend less time by my computer ja more time listening to music. And also - it has nothing to do with Franks magic. It is just plain curtesy not to spread out in the open all the plans or information about something that belongs to someone else.
There is a difference in mostly figuering out things for your self and then getting a little help, apposed to having everything layed out for you.
You pride in figuering out everything by your self but then you blame people who France has helped for not sharing private information with everyone else (including you)?? If plain curtesy isn't enough then maybe the old saying applyes here: "You don't want to bite the hand that's feeding you."
There is a difference in mostly figuering out things for your self and then getting a little help, apposed to having everything layed out for you.
You pride in figuering out everything by your self but then you blame people who France has helped for not sharing private information with everyone else (including you)?? If plain curtesy isn't enough then maybe the old saying applyes here: "You don't want to bite the hand that's feeding you."
Hi Jugi,
I remember you. I am glad that little help worked for you. And by all means keep the little secret safe. What troubled my mind was disappearing of posts with information on how to make parts not protected by patent. I am very fortunate and do not need help with manufacturing but some people do. I do not agree that discussing details of patented design is immoral. After all, the patent is there to protect Frank’s wealth and he made us more than aware of it.
What have you mostly figured out yourself? The pictures of Franks tonearms are out there, the patent drawings and description are out there, if you do not speak German, the US patent is out there. Not exactly top secret, right? You probably had Rega or similar tonearm to measure the basic dimensions. You built a clone and it did not work, right?
Marek
And now for the benefit of future cloners:
I do not know if I have used the right size and shape of magnets - that is Frank’s sweet secret. I will share what I did. I hoped to get magnets 3/8x3/8” but they were not available at the time so I used 3/8x1/4 in the wand and 3/8x1/2 in support. I tried to figure out the shape of the pole peace to make the magnetic field concentrated more on axis to prevent infamous wobbliness. That is Frank’s other sweet secret. I tried different pole pieces and observed the shape of the ferric dust. I observed how close the iron needle would stay to the center of the magnet with different pole pieces. After a couple of hours of experimenting and not coming into any conclusions I did the obvious and “sharpened” the ends of the magnets. The further off center the bigger the distance between magnets. I think Frank mentioned that method in his patent. It did the trick for me. Contrary to rumors the magnets are not extremely hard and could be tooled like steel. Just do not heat them so they do not lose magnetism. As for pole pieces, I use soft steel 3/8” diameter about 1/8” high, shaped on end to fill the conical hole formed by the end of the drill. To keep magnets in place I used epoxy. Feel free to criticize.
And to bite the hand I have previously fed I have to say that my home made tonearm totally smoked out celebrated $1500 commercial design, more glory to Franks invention.
I remember you. I am glad that little help worked for you. And by all means keep the little secret safe. What troubled my mind was disappearing of posts with information on how to make parts not protected by patent. I am very fortunate and do not need help with manufacturing but some people do. I do not agree that discussing details of patented design is immoral. After all, the patent is there to protect Frank’s wealth and he made us more than aware of it.
What have you mostly figured out yourself? The pictures of Franks tonearms are out there, the patent drawings and description are out there, if you do not speak German, the US patent is out there. Not exactly top secret, right? You probably had Rega or similar tonearm to measure the basic dimensions. You built a clone and it did not work, right?
Marek
And now for the benefit of future cloners:
I do not know if I have used the right size and shape of magnets - that is Frank’s sweet secret. I will share what I did. I hoped to get magnets 3/8x3/8” but they were not available at the time so I used 3/8x1/4 in the wand and 3/8x1/2 in support. I tried to figure out the shape of the pole peace to make the magnetic field concentrated more on axis to prevent infamous wobbliness. That is Frank’s other sweet secret. I tried different pole pieces and observed the shape of the ferric dust. I observed how close the iron needle would stay to the center of the magnet with different pole pieces. After a couple of hours of experimenting and not coming into any conclusions I did the obvious and “sharpened” the ends of the magnets. The further off center the bigger the distance between magnets. I think Frank mentioned that method in his patent. It did the trick for me. Contrary to rumors the magnets are not extremely hard and could be tooled like steel. Just do not heat them so they do not lose magnetism. As for pole pieces, I use soft steel 3/8” diameter about 1/8” high, shaped on end to fill the conical hole formed by the end of the drill. To keep magnets in place I used epoxy. Feel free to criticize.
And to bite the hand I have previously fed I have to say that my home made tonearm totally smoked out celebrated $1500 commercial design, more glory to Franks invention.
Hi fellows:
I want to wade in here. I don't know if you folks in Europe have a very different convention on this that us here in North America, but here the rule is: YOU CAN BUILD WHATEVER YOU WANT TO BUILD, Patented or not, as long as it is not for resale. We are free to look up patents and use the information, engineering and trade secrets contained in them SO LONG AS IT IS NOT FOR RESALE.
There is no question that Mr. Schroder has solved a number of problems and built a very cool product. Long may he prosper. That does not give him, or anyone else, exclusive control of an IDEA; only the PRODUCT.
In addition, anyone who wants to take the time to look at commercial history will be able to see thousands of examples where encouraging non-commercial use of a unique design has only good results for the patent-holder. The more people who know about a design, the more popular it becomes. There are many, many people out there who will never want to build their own. Those people will just have to pay Mr. Schroder his justly-deserved money to buy one.
For those of us who are crazy enough to undertake building one based on a patented design, we would never buy one anyway - so Mr. Schroder is not out of pocket anyway.
IMHO, this forum is for people who want to exchange ideas and experiences about BUILDING hifi stuff, not for harassing inventive and ingenious folks who are doing what this forum is for: DIY.
Sorry, I don't want to offend anyone with my opinions, but that's just how I see things.
So, I say - BRAVO! marekst... Keep up the good work. I for one would love it of you posted some plans of your tonearm for those of us who are less ingenious (and with less time) than you.
Jess
I want to wade in here. I don't know if you folks in Europe have a very different convention on this that us here in North America, but here the rule is: YOU CAN BUILD WHATEVER YOU WANT TO BUILD, Patented or not, as long as it is not for resale. We are free to look up patents and use the information, engineering and trade secrets contained in them SO LONG AS IT IS NOT FOR RESALE.
There is no question that Mr. Schroder has solved a number of problems and built a very cool product. Long may he prosper. That does not give him, or anyone else, exclusive control of an IDEA; only the PRODUCT.
In addition, anyone who wants to take the time to look at commercial history will be able to see thousands of examples where encouraging non-commercial use of a unique design has only good results for the patent-holder. The more people who know about a design, the more popular it becomes. There are many, many people out there who will never want to build their own. Those people will just have to pay Mr. Schroder his justly-deserved money to buy one.
For those of us who are crazy enough to undertake building one based on a patented design, we would never buy one anyway - so Mr. Schroder is not out of pocket anyway.
IMHO, this forum is for people who want to exchange ideas and experiences about BUILDING hifi stuff, not for harassing inventive and ingenious folks who are doing what this forum is for: DIY.
Sorry, I don't want to offend anyone with my opinions, but that's just how I see things.
So, I say - BRAVO! marekst... Keep up the good work. I for one would love it of you posted some plans of your tonearm for those of us who are less ingenious (and with less time) than you.
Jess
As a practical matter this may or may not be correct, but as a legal matter, it is usually not so. You may build for yourself for the purposes of research or education, but NOT to avoid spending money on a commercial design. For example, if I wanted a tonearm to use in my turntable, it would be patent infringement to build a design which falls under an existing unexpired patent. If I wanted to explore a new way of damping resonance in a design, then it would be OK to build one for test purposes, but NOT to use in my living room.
Usual disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, but as a professional inventor, I have had deep involvement with the Patent Office and infringement litigation.
I stand corrected. 
"Knowledge is always a blessing - even when it hurts" (Mark Twain)
However I have never heard of anyone being sued for patent infringement for 'building one for your own use'. I might be wrong about that too, tho'.
So, Sy, here is a question:
marekst has taken Frank Schroder's design and, for a number of reasons, modified a significant portion of it. His work would clearly constitute research and education. If I then built a duplicate of marekst's design, which is not identical to Franks, does that put me in violation of Frank's patent?
Jess
"Knowledge is always a blessing - even when it hurts" (Mark Twain)
However I have never heard of anyone being sued for patent infringement for 'building one for your own use'. I might be wrong about that too, tho'.
So, Sy, here is a question:
marekst has taken Frank Schroder's design and, for a number of reasons, modified a significant portion of it. His work would clearly constitute research and education. If I then built a duplicate of marekst's design, which is not identical to Franks, does that put me in violation of Frank's patent?
Jess
Stu i agree however...
I think that while you are probably correct in your interpritation of the law there are practicle considerations to be made. The patent once applied for (and any published application) provide the inventor (patent holder) from infringment by others attempting commerdial gain from the idea. I don't know where the practicle line gets drawn but if I build an arm following Scroder's design to have and use and learn from that's fine. If while doing so I figure better or different ways of doing so and build another that is fine too. Now if I sell the first arm to finance a new project I have technically crossed the line. A letter from Mr. Schroder's lawyer can advise me of my error and stop me from a repeat sale. Legal letters are expensive and legal action across boarders is even more expensive. So there is a grey area where if I am selling stolen designs and appear to be making enough profit a patent holder will probably take me to court and try to sue me for lost sales etc. The likelyhood of your average talented DIY"er being able to produce a product such as this and be competitive selling it are not high. Sales and marketing in any industry are expensive and most often require investment. No one will knowinglly invest in such a project considering the risk of loss. I think that selling your work to fund your on going experimentation is not going to land anybody in court.
The whole point of patents is 1) to make money for the patent agency 2) to provide protection from infringment to the patent holder and 3) to make public the design information to encourage public development of the technology. DIYers do not pose much if any loss to the patent holder. DIYers do need to be aware of "line crossing" but sharring public information is legal and good. Telling all about privlidged information is a different issue and unless a designer has signed proof of some conflict he is out of luck (so is the teller as far as obtaining additional information). That does not make telling right as it is a moral breach of trust. I guess that both parties who exchange information need to be confident that both sides understand the issues and trust each other. This is just my take on this matter. The question to ask yourself is how would I feel if they did this to me? Regards Moray James.
I think that while you are probably correct in your interpritation of the law there are practicle considerations to be made. The patent once applied for (and any published application) provide the inventor (patent holder) from infringment by others attempting commerdial gain from the idea. I don't know where the practicle line gets drawn but if I build an arm following Scroder's design to have and use and learn from that's fine. If while doing so I figure better or different ways of doing so and build another that is fine too. Now if I sell the first arm to finance a new project I have technically crossed the line. A letter from Mr. Schroder's lawyer can advise me of my error and stop me from a repeat sale. Legal letters are expensive and legal action across boarders is even more expensive. So there is a grey area where if I am selling stolen designs and appear to be making enough profit a patent holder will probably take me to court and try to sue me for lost sales etc. The likelyhood of your average talented DIY"er being able to produce a product such as this and be competitive selling it are not high. Sales and marketing in any industry are expensive and most often require investment. No one will knowinglly invest in such a project considering the risk of loss. I think that selling your work to fund your on going experimentation is not going to land anybody in court.
The whole point of patents is 1) to make money for the patent agency 2) to provide protection from infringment to the patent holder and 3) to make public the design information to encourage public development of the technology. DIYers do not pose much if any loss to the patent holder. DIYers do need to be aware of "line crossing" but sharring public information is legal and good. Telling all about privlidged information is a different issue and unless a designer has signed proof of some conflict he is out of luck (so is the teller as far as obtaining additional information). That does not make telling right as it is a moral breach of trust. I guess that both parties who exchange information need to be confident that both sides understand the issues and trust each other. This is just my take on this matter. The question to ask yourself is how would I feel if they did this to me? Regards Moray James.
All very interesting...
Not exactly on the topic of marekst's innovative engineering work or, for that matter, Mr. Schroder's original bit of 'magic'. But these questions do (and should) pop up from time to time.
I, for one, would love to hear what Mr. Schroder has to say on all of this. Although, it seems that folks in Europe might have different feelings about this subject.
However, I just want to applaud marekst for his efforts and I feel a bit brackish when I hear people being criticized for plagerism when they are just trying to enjoy their hobby.
Jess
Not exactly on the topic of marekst's innovative engineering work or, for that matter, Mr. Schroder's original bit of 'magic'. But these questions do (and should) pop up from time to time.
I, for one, would love to hear what Mr. Schroder has to say on all of this.
Although, it seems that folks in Europe might have different feelings about this subject.However, I just want to applaud marekst for his efforts and I feel a bit brackish when I hear people being criticized for plagerism when they are just trying to enjoy their hobby.
Jess
Hi Guys,
Here is my take on this matter(and I believe I've posted the essence of what follows here before):
I have nothing against any private person who wants to build an arm for their personal use based upon my design/patent. In fact I have given out advice on how to solve problems with it numerous times here and elsewhere and will continue to do so if diyers contact me privately or post their question here(in which case it might take me a while to notice it).
I do not give out technical drawings or blueprints and I'm kindly asking others who have succesfully built their clone, mutant, variant or whatever you care to call it to refrain from publishing such drawings as this would encourage third parties with a commercial interest to pick up on it. Yes, this has happened before and I'd rather avoid spending time, money and nerves to protect my intellectual property(there is no use in filing a patent in China, if there is a market for a copy, that copy will be produced...).
At least two german companies have copied parts of my arms. Upon being asked why they didn't care to ask permission, the reply was: "well, you can't patent a headshell, can you?..."
A little bit frustrating when you realize that their previously displayed friendliness was simply their method of getting one to surrender as much usable info as possible.
For diyers, isn't it a lot more satisfying to figure it out for yourself rather than just taking a drawing to the nearest machine shop and have somone else do it for you(to give an extreme example..)?
I never felt that diyers would "cost" me potential income. The typical diyer wouldn't buy (or couldn't afford) the commercial product anyway. But, one poorly/wrongly executed clone(and the subsequent posts) can give potential customers the wrong impression about both the sonic properties/qualities as much as misleading them regarding the design principle/features.
Btw, Marek Check out the German patent DE 30 02 013 C2 to which you'll find a reference in both my US and European patent. You'll find the arrangement(upside down) looking and partially functioning like yours.
Summary:
Build your own. Even though it can be considered a patent infringement, I would never act on it.
Don't sell any of your clones, as I will act on it.
Feel free to contact me for tips and hints on how to make it work(how well it'll work it mostly up to you!).
Better than all of the above: Come up with something completely new and original! Be more adventurous and experiment with different materials and visuals No commercial considerations to hold you guys back!
Cheerio,
Frank
Here is my take on this matter(and I believe I've posted the essence of what follows here before):
I have nothing against any private person who wants to build an arm for their personal use based upon my design/patent. In fact I have given out advice on how to solve problems with it numerous times here and elsewhere and will continue to do so if diyers contact me privately or post their question here(in which case it might take me a while to notice it).
I do not give out technical drawings or blueprints and I'm kindly asking others who have succesfully built their clone, mutant, variant or whatever you care to call it to refrain from publishing such drawings as this would encourage third parties with a commercial interest to pick up on it. Yes, this has happened before and I'd rather avoid spending time, money and nerves to protect my intellectual property(there is no use in filing a patent in China, if there is a market for a copy, that copy will be produced...).
At least two german companies have copied parts of my arms. Upon being asked why they didn't care to ask permission, the reply was: "well, you can't patent a headshell, can you?..."
A little bit frustrating when you realize that their previously displayed friendliness was simply their method of getting one to surrender as much usable info as possible.
For diyers, isn't it a lot more satisfying to figure it out for yourself rather than just taking a drawing to the nearest machine shop and have somone else do it for you(to give an extreme example..)?
I never felt that diyers would "cost" me potential income. The typical diyer wouldn't buy (or couldn't afford) the commercial product anyway. But, one poorly/wrongly executed clone(and the subsequent posts) can give potential customers the wrong impression about both the sonic properties/qualities as much as misleading them regarding the design principle/features.
Btw, Marek
Check out the German patent DE 30 02 013 C2 to which you'll find a reference in both my US and European patent. You'll find the arrangement(upside down) looking and partially functioning like yours.Summary:
Build your own. Even though it can be considered a patent infringement, I would never act on it.
Don't sell any of your clones, as I will act on it.
Feel free to contact me for tips and hints on how to make it work(how well it'll work it mostly up to you!).
Better than all of the above: Come up with something completely new and original! Be more adventurous and experiment with different materials and visuals
No commercial considerations to hold you guys back!Cheerio,
Frank
Wow - pretty hard to be more fair than that.
I think all of us should be honoured that a) someone of Mr. Schroder's stature should take the time to participate in a conversation like this and b) that he is so willing to encourage us in our hobby. I know I am.
Thank you, Frank (I hope I am not being to forward using your first name) and I think that puts a period to this off-topic meander into the ethics of DIY.
For myself, I intend to settle down and learn about the various properties of shaped magnets and then have a go at building one of these tonearms.
Frank: have you found that your tonearm 'likes' or is compatible with any particular type of cartridge?
Best regards to all
Jess
Review of the mutant.
Frank’s tonearms may sound better as he does much more precise machining and has been refining his product for years.
In my review I compared my mutant to basic VPI and OL Encounter tonearms.
I have used my DIY turntable, my brutally revealing system and my biased ears so I may be unfair and too critical to others.
The VPI tonearm sounded better on my TT than on Scout - no surprise here. On its own it was good. Except for antiskate distortion the sound was acceptable but technical details were not acceptable. After my encounter with the Encounter, the VPI sounded muddy and slow.
The Encounter was clearly better, much more dynamic, had more precise imaging, sharper details and tighter bass but combined with my Lowther speakers it was too edgy. I would compare the tonearm with a fighter: strong, dynamic, fast, precise, arrogant and ready to bite your ear off.
The mutant is more like Baryshnikov: not slower, even more precise, perfectly in control, balanced, elegant and fully enjoyable. The soundstage is big, deep, it doesn’t jump at you - the details are all there with less distortion. The imaging is excellent. The big bass is there…. What is most important, I do not crave anything better even if it exists.
One complaint: if I count the labor, the mutant costs as much as a small car.
The rest of the system:
Shelter 501 II; DIY Cardas tonearm wire
DIY cocobolo/acrylic/ Aluminum/ lead TT with Cu modified VPI Super Scout Master platter and battery powered Teres motor
Cary PH302; Moth S2A3
Unquestionably my own, not adopted, home born, one of the kind, back loaded, front firing, metal powder composite, perfectly round, Lowther horns.
DIY room: designed, build and optimized to compliment my horns.
DIY balanced power supply
Music: 90% classical
Marek
Frank’s tonearms may sound better as he does much more precise machining and has been refining his product for years.
In my review I compared my mutant to basic VPI and OL Encounter tonearms.
I have used my DIY turntable, my brutally revealing system and my biased ears so I may be unfair and too critical to others.
The VPI tonearm sounded better on my TT than on Scout - no surprise here. On its own it was good. Except for antiskate distortion the sound was acceptable but technical details were not acceptable. After my encounter with the Encounter, the VPI sounded muddy and slow.
The Encounter was clearly better, much more dynamic, had more precise imaging, sharper details and tighter bass but combined with my Lowther speakers it was too edgy. I would compare the tonearm with a fighter: strong, dynamic, fast, precise, arrogant and ready to bite your ear off.
The mutant is more like Baryshnikov: not slower, even more precise, perfectly in control, balanced, elegant and fully enjoyable. The soundstage is big, deep, it doesn’t jump at you - the details are all there with less distortion. The imaging is excellent. The big bass is there…. What is most important, I do not crave anything better even if it exists.
One complaint: if I count the labor, the mutant costs as much as a small car.
The rest of the system:
Shelter 501 II; DIY Cardas tonearm wire
DIY cocobolo/acrylic/ Aluminum/ lead TT with Cu modified VPI Super Scout Master platter and battery powered Teres motor
Cary PH302; Moth S2A3
Unquestionably my own, not adopted, home born, one of the kind, back loaded, front firing, metal powder composite, perfectly round, Lowther horns.
DIY room: designed, build and optimized to compliment my horns.
DIY balanced power supply
Music: 90% classical
Marek
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