Hi everyone
I have a Systemdek IIX table, with systemdek Arm, glass Platter, and I would like to solve some small problems, and increase performance if possible. This topic has been covered a bit in some previous posts, but I'd like to go over it again, and hopefully post pictures, and results.
General symptoms: The sound is generally good, but I feel like the midrage is sometimes a bit "lost" in the sound. I have a few recordings on CD and vinyl, and when I compare the two, the CD versions are clearer and vocals have more impact, and are more defined. Also, I sometimes hear slight distorsion in the vocals on some records. This is not on all recordings. I'm using either Grado Black, or Denon DL-110 cart.
1- Motor noise and vibration: The motor is silent when running normally, but during start-up, it does make some noise during 2 or 3 seconds, as it goes up to speed. Also, when I turn the table Off, the is also some noise during slow down. Kind of a soft grinding noise.
I checked the motor, and there is clearly some vibrations when the motor is running. When I turn the pulley manually, I feel small "dents". Although the vibration is not really perceptible when the motor is mounted, it is surely not very good.
I tried to put oil in the motor, on the axis, but the oil just did not seems to go inside. Is it sealed? Do I have to remove something?
More later...
I have a Systemdek IIX table, with systemdek Arm, glass Platter, and I would like to solve some small problems, and increase performance if possible. This topic has been covered a bit in some previous posts, but I'd like to go over it again, and hopefully post pictures, and results.
General symptoms: The sound is generally good, but I feel like the midrage is sometimes a bit "lost" in the sound. I have a few recordings on CD and vinyl, and when I compare the two, the CD versions are clearer and vocals have more impact, and are more defined. Also, I sometimes hear slight distorsion in the vocals on some records. This is not on all recordings. I'm using either Grado Black, or Denon DL-110 cart.
1- Motor noise and vibration: The motor is silent when running normally, but during start-up, it does make some noise during 2 or 3 seconds, as it goes up to speed. Also, when I turn the table Off, the is also some noise during slow down. Kind of a soft grinding noise.
I checked the motor, and there is clearly some vibrations when the motor is running. When I turn the pulley manually, I feel small "dents". Although the vibration is not really perceptible when the motor is mounted, it is surely not very good.
I tried to put oil in the motor, on the axis, but the oil just did not seems to go inside. Is it sealed? Do I have to remove something?
More later...
2- Speed stability & power supply :
because of the motor vibrations, I'm wondering about speed stability. I don't have a strobe to check however.
Can I check the power supply? Should I upgrade something? I can use a scope from my job to check out the supply.
Edit:
Oh yeah, and if i spin the platter backwards and start the motor, it will continue backwards. I will never start backwards however like that other Thorens post. Is this normal?
Any advice is welcome.
F
because of the motor vibrations, I'm wondering about speed stability. I don't have a strobe to check however.
Can I check the power supply? Should I upgrade something? I can use a scope from my job to check out the supply.
Edit:
Oh yeah, and if i spin the platter backwards and start the motor, it will continue backwards. I will never start backwards however like that other Thorens post. Is this normal?
Any advice is welcome.
F
3- Other stuff
Main bearing seems fine, if I remove the belt and give the platter a spin, it keeps going for a long long time, without any perceptible noise. I don't worry for that.
Suspension seems fine. There is no damping of any kind on the springs. Is this normal?
For other bits, I read a few advice from sreten about damping the subchassis and other stuff. I may try this and post results.
Tonearm works well. i know that this is not the best there is, but the tonearm seems quite rigid, no noticeable play on the tonearm. Not much friction in any direction. I won't upgrade for a Rega right now.
Thanks
Main bearing seems fine, if I remove the belt and give the platter a spin, it keeps going for a long long time, without any perceptible noise. I don't worry for that.
Suspension seems fine. There is no damping of any kind on the springs. Is this normal?
For other bits, I read a few advice from sreten about damping the subchassis and other stuff. I may try this and post results.
Tonearm works well. i know that this is not the best there is, but the tonearm seems quite rigid, no noticeable play on the tonearm. Not much friction in any direction. I won't upgrade for a Rega right now.
Thanks
The "steps" that you feel when you turn the motor are normal - and the bit of noise you hear on startup and shutdown are just the belt slipping a little. However, it would be worth your while to make sure that the belt is running on the crown of the pulley and not rubbing of the lips of the pulley when running.
Speed stability is easily tested by ear - put on a disc with organ or horns/anything where a single note is held for a period. Rises and falls in pitch are indicative of wow. If you have this issue, the first thing to do is clean the pulley, belt and subplatter with some petrol or white spirits. To check if your deck is running too fast or slow, count 100 revolutions of the platter - it should take exactly 3 mins.
I really don't know what to suggest to make your midrange come out a bit more. You don't say what phono stage you are using - its loading may make a difference. I also use the DL110 and don't find the midrange lacking at all. You could try different mats on the platter, or none at all and see what that does for you.
Lastly, I made a diy armageddon (clone of naim armageddon PSU) for my TT (similar to systemdek) and it made quite a difference to resolution - have a look in the FAQ section of www.pinkfishmedia.net or do a search here.
Fran
Speed stability is easily tested by ear - put on a disc with organ or horns/anything where a single note is held for a period. Rises and falls in pitch are indicative of wow. If you have this issue, the first thing to do is clean the pulley, belt and subplatter with some petrol or white spirits. To check if your deck is running too fast or slow, count 100 revolutions of the platter - it should take exactly 3 mins.
I really don't know what to suggest to make your midrange come out a bit more. You don't say what phono stage you are using - its loading may make a difference. I also use the DL110 and don't find the midrange lacking at all. You could try different mats on the platter, or none at all and see what that does for you.
Lastly, I made a diy armageddon (clone of naim armageddon PSU) for my TT (similar to systemdek) and it made quite a difference to resolution - have a look in the FAQ section of www.pinkfishmedia.net or do a search here.
Fran
I'm using a Hagerman Bugle phono stage. I'm considering buying a Bottlehead Seduction but I don't know right now if i will get significant improvement of if something else is wrong in my set-up. The loading is standard 47k ohm. I'm curently running 45 dB gain with either cart. I may also upgrade my buggle with better RCA's, better caps. I'm not convinced that this would make a difference at all.
I'll check up my belt, maybe cleaning it a bit and checking alignment.The pulley/belt alignment system in the systemdek is not particularly impressive.
I'm using a standard felt mat. I used a hard rubber mat for a few months, and noticed no diffence at all between the two mats.
Thanks
F
I'll check up my belt, maybe cleaning it a bit and checking alignment.The pulley/belt alignment system in the systemdek is not particularly impressive.
I'm using a standard felt mat. I used a hard rubber mat for a few months, and noticed no diffence at all between the two mats.
Thanks
F
If you did not percieve any difference between the rubber and the felt mat, something os definitely wrong with the setup/setting of yout deck. I suspect the suspension system is not working properly. The belt also seems to be worn out - what about the lubrication of the pülatter bearing and the motor perhaps? If your Systemdek is not new (very likely) it has to be serviced by a specialist. It can sound very good if it is in perfect condition.
I think the single best improvment you could make would be to the motor or it's power-supply. AC motors all 'cog' to some degree, as you've noticed, and this is a particular problem with suspended, belt driven TT's.
Systemdek used to make an 'E' (outboard 'synthesized' AC supply) version of the IIX and IIX-900 which was a major upgrade.
Better still, get a DC motor such as the Origin Live. Having said that, they are exhorbintantly priced nowadays. There are various DIY solutions discussed here at, er, DIYaudio.
ciao,
A.
edit >> PS - I've owned 2 Systemdeks IIX's over the years (a IIX and IIX-900, both from new), and they were/are very capable decks, easily the best at their price at the time.
Is yours the original IIX with the spiral-groove 'pumped' bearing? If it is, they are highly 'damped' (more drag than the usual precision-clearance types) and very prone to being affected by stretched/worn/slipping belts, or for that matter by out-of-spec 'generic' replacements, which a lot of suppliers think it's OK to get 'more-or-less' right - it isn't , they should be exactly the right length and precision-ground to a consistent thickness after being cut, which many, if not most, cheap 'generics' aren't.
All in all, getting a decent quality belt can be a real pain-in-the-rear, believe me, I've been there.
Systemdek used to make an 'E' (outboard 'synthesized' AC supply) version of the IIX and IIX-900 which was a major upgrade.
Better still, get a DC motor such as the Origin Live. Having said that, they are exhorbintantly priced nowadays. There are various DIY solutions discussed here at, er, DIYaudio.
ciao,
A.
edit >> PS - I've owned 2 Systemdeks IIX's over the years (a IIX and IIX-900, both from new), and they were/are very capable decks, easily the best at their price at the time.
Is yours the original IIX with the spiral-groove 'pumped' bearing? If it is, they are highly 'damped' (more drag than the usual precision-clearance types) and very prone to being affected by stretched/worn/slipping belts, or for that matter by out-of-spec 'generic' replacements, which a lot of suppliers think it's OK to get 'more-or-less' right - it isn't , they should be exactly the right length and precision-ground to a consistent thickness after being cut, which many, if not most, cheap 'generics' aren't.
All in all, getting a decent quality belt can be a real pain-in-the-rear, believe me, I've been there.
Hi guys
I done these things:
1- Put oil in the motor on the axis from the top, but as I said, it does not seems to go inside very much. Did not change anything. The motor is making noise when i touch the axis (when there is a radial force applied on the axis)
2- I cleaned the belt with alcool and it did reduce a little bit the noise when starting.
3-Put damping sheets on the subplatter.
4- Checked the belt-pulley. belt is on the middle on the pulley.
All this is pretty minor I guess and it did not seemed to make noticeable changes.
5- I've ordered a record clamp, and a new cart (AT440MLa). I'll see if this will help.
6- I've decided to upgrade my bugle preamp with better caps, resistors and RCA. Ordering parts in the next few days.
This should make more significant improvements. I'll post results later.
Thanks
F
I done these things:
1- Put oil in the motor on the axis from the top, but as I said, it does not seems to go inside very much. Did not change anything. The motor is making noise when i touch the axis (when there is a radial force applied on the axis)
2- I cleaned the belt with alcool and it did reduce a little bit the noise when starting.
3-Put damping sheets on the subplatter.
4- Checked the belt-pulley. belt is on the middle on the pulley.
All this is pretty minor I guess and it did not seemed to make noticeable changes.
5- I've ordered a record clamp, and a new cart (AT440MLa). I'll see if this will help.
6- I've decided to upgrade my bugle preamp with better caps, resistors and RCA. Ordering parts in the next few days.
This should make more significant improvements. I'll post results later.
Thanks
F
Cartridge change
OK, situation is better now.
I bought a new Audio-Technica AT440MLa and after 10-15 hours of play, I must say that I'm impressed. This cart is great. I liked my Denon 110, but it seems that I have less problems with the 440MLa. I have not made rigourous A-B comparaison, but some recordings were not very nice with the Denon. Sometimes harsh with slight distorsion in the vocals. It was as if there was some "overload" of the signal.
Now, the situation is much better with the 440. There is very little surface noise, and the sound is very clean. This is a great purchase!
I've ordered parts for an upgraded Bugle. Polystyrene capacitors, Roederstein resistors, Silver wire, Vampire RCAs, I will post results when this is done.
I may also change a few things on the turntable. Add mass and/or damping sheets on the various structure of the turntable,
check for new feet. My guess would be to put softer feet to stop vibrations from floor to the turntable, bu panicos recommend hard feet. I wonder how this could improve the sound. All this later.
Bye
OK, situation is better now.
I bought a new Audio-Technica AT440MLa and after 10-15 hours of play, I must say that I'm impressed. This cart is great. I liked my Denon 110, but it seems that I have less problems with the 440MLa. I have not made rigourous A-B comparaison, but some recordings were not very nice with the Denon. Sometimes harsh with slight distorsion in the vocals. It was as if there was some "overload" of the signal.
Now, the situation is much better with the 440. There is very little surface noise, and the sound is very clean. This is a great purchase!
I've ordered parts for an upgraded Bugle. Polystyrene capacitors, Roederstein resistors, Silver wire, Vampire RCAs, I will post results when this is done.
I may also change a few things on the turntable. Add mass and/or damping sheets on the various structure of the turntable,
check for new feet. My guess would be to put softer feet to stop vibrations from floor to the turntable, bu panicos recommend hard feet. I wonder how this could improve the sound. All this later.
Bye
Systemdek tune up
Hi Garry,glad you are happy with your new cart.The idea behind solid feet is that they wiil provide stability to the IIX plinth so that the suspension works properly.Softer feet may seem logical for floor vibrations but can also resonate at frequencies in the audible range and this might be a reason for suffering midrange.At least try something harder and see how it goes.It is true that the IIX motor assembly is not the best and some noice and vibrations are picked up from the cartridge especially if it has good low frequecy extension.Some rework using some soft rubber grommets to isolate motor from plinth will keep this noise away.If you hear with a stethoscope how much noise goes to the top of plinth you might be surprised.So try to kill that by decoupling the motor from it and combine this with solid feet.This also might change your mind to use mass on the plinth.Systsmdek belongs to the 'light and rigid' school and not the 'heavy and damped' one.Let me know how you proceed as turntables are my favorite subject.
Hi Garry,glad you are happy with your new cart.The idea behind solid feet is that they wiil provide stability to the IIX plinth so that the suspension works properly.Softer feet may seem logical for floor vibrations but can also resonate at frequencies in the audible range and this might be a reason for suffering midrange.At least try something harder and see how it goes.It is true that the IIX motor assembly is not the best and some noice and vibrations are picked up from the cartridge especially if it has good low frequecy extension.Some rework using some soft rubber grommets to isolate motor from plinth will keep this noise away.If you hear with a stethoscope how much noise goes to the top of plinth you might be surprised.So try to kill that by decoupling the motor from it and combine this with solid feet.This also might change your mind to use mass on the plinth.Systsmdek belongs to the 'light and rigid' school and not the 'heavy and damped' one.Let me know how you proceed as turntables are my favorite subject.
I just realized that I also had a problem with the pulley running loose. I compared CD vs Vinyl, and realized that the table was running slow. I checked the start-up time and it was more than 5 seconds until speed stabilize (supposed to be 2 sec) and it was slow, at least a 1/2 tone lower. The motor axis had some oil on it, and the pulley was slipping. I cleaned, put a drop of silicone glue and voilà. Now it is starting in 2 seconds, and the speed is good.
I made a comparaison between a vinyl and CD recording of Steely Dan first album by switching back and forth with the selector switch, and I must say that the Vinyl was clearly better. The CD sound was not as natural, and the voices were way better and full with the Vinyl. High frequency seemed "grainy" with the CD.
It is the first time I find a vinyl recording better than CD. This has not been the case in the past. I will make other comparisons with other recordings.
F
I made a comparaison between a vinyl and CD recording of Steely Dan first album by switching back and forth with the selector switch, and I must say that the Vinyl was clearly better. The CD sound was not as natural, and the voices were way better and full with the Vinyl. High frequency seemed "grainy" with the CD.
It is the first time I find a vinyl recording better than CD. This has not been the case in the past. I will make other comparisons with other recordings.
F
I use the Herbie's Lab Way Excellent Tuntable Mat http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/ttmat.htm on my XII. It helps damp the glass platter while not degrading the sound. Also have the table on a wall mounted shelf.
I'm happy to see an interesting mat at a more reasonnable price. IMO, mats are way over priced items. I'm very reluctant to buy a 100$ rubber circle 
I paid my table 250$, so I don't want to spend 400$ on accessories!
Thanks for the link.
PS- By the way, the pulley is made of metal (looks like aluminum)
I paid my table 250$, so I don't want to spend 400$ on accessories!
Thanks for the link.
PS- By the way, the pulley is made of metal (looks like aluminum)
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