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Old 31st May 2006, 07:10 PM   #21
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Default comparisons

Hi!

I am following these threads about this phono stage, what I would like to hear is some comparison.


Have you compared this phonostage to others? Which one? What the differences?


Thanks
Pierre
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Old 31st May 2006, 08:34 PM   #22
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If you would like to HEAR the difference you have to build them.
Or visit someone who did.

A lot can be read about the perceived qualities in the different threads

Regards,

E&E
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Old 2nd June 2006, 06:06 AM   #23
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Hi,
I will compare the stage when I'm sure I it performs the best it can. That will take some time, I fear.

At the moment, I have a strange phenomenon: I tried the Denon cart DL103-R, and it sounds dull, like underwater. Since it has a lower impedance than the original DL103 (14 vx. 40 Ohms) my guess was, that the original would have lesser trebles, but not so!
I'm totally puzzled!

Rüdiger
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Old 2nd June 2006, 10:12 AM   #24
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Default DL-103-R

Quote:
Originally posted by Onvinyl

At the moment, I have a strange phenomenon: I tried the Denon cart DL103-R, and it sounds dull, like underwater. Since it has a lower impedance than the original DL103 (14 vx. 40 Ohms) my guess was, that the original would have lesser trebles, but not so!
I'm totally puzzled!

Rüdiger

you are right Rudy! The DL103R is much better than the standard one, it is more open and it is well known that it has a smaller roll-off in the highs compared with the standard.

That's my pickup and I know it very well! You should have experienced a faster bass and tighter bass as well (not night and day... but it is a bit).

The problem is that usually the MC phono stage for such a pickup should be very good and adhoc (well tha's apply to every cart actually).

I use an *old* Burmester 785 (wonderfull German stuffs) which in 1983 implemented the active RIAA... not many gears at time were doing such a big thing.... with an input sensitivity of 0.08mV!... at that time I believe only Counterpoint was able to do that but with passive RIAA!!!

The Burmester is an astonishing preamp the problem is that you never know what cables to use to macth the impedence/capacitance needed. In fact the manual of the preamp has a selection of 10 mc pickups to be used with it... the DENON is not among them. That's way I am following your very interesting post. I am thinking to play around with your circuit.

I have some question:

1. In your very interesting comment you do not discuss the choice of the U3 opamp, why?

2. I am not an expert so I would like to understand (roughly) what is its function;

3. Do you plan to design a bord for this circuit?

4. Which psu are you using to feed it?

By for now
Cukkurullo
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Old 2nd June 2006, 04:36 PM   #25
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Hi Cukkurullo,
thanks for your interest. If you read the first post, you probably read the posts I linked as well. My own contribution to the circuit appears small then.

U3's purpose is a DC-Servo. It keeps the output at zero Volts DC to avoid the need of a coupling cap. The actual opamp, the AD820, is a textbook choice, Walt Jung and Erno Borbely use it, for example.
I did not try other op's, because I think (well, hope...) its contribution to the sound is small when performing its integrator job well. It is superior to all caps I tried ( I did not try rjm's favorite choice, the black gate).
I will most probably not produce a pcb 'cause I don't plan to make more than one phonopre. If you omit the servo, you might use rjm's board (he is in the process of another batch in the moment, look his thread). I did not try his board, though, and the use of AD811 & AD797 is delicate, so there's a risk.


As a psu I use a super regulator (lots of info about it at diyaudio) which plays a major role for the sound quality.

Yes, I'm aware that the -R performs better. My point ist, that this circuit should perform the better the lower the Z of the cart is. Since the -R *has* this lower Z, the circuit + DL103-R should perform gorgeous together. They just don't.



Rüdiger
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Old 2nd June 2006, 09:21 PM   #26
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well ... forget what I've said about 'underwater'. It wasn't the clones' fault. I have new speakers, and the interaction with room and furniture is totally different from my old ones. I should have listened closer while crosschecking with the CD-Player.

Well, the DL103-R plays real good now. I hadn't Problems with to less trebles with the old 103, and I do not notice more treble now. I do notice more resolution now and that hard to describe increase of quality when you get thrilled by that wah-wah guitar, for instance.


Rüdiger
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Old 5th June 2006, 12:36 PM   #27
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Richard Murdey
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Quote:
Since it has a lower impedance than the original DL103 (14 vx. 40 Ohms) my guess was, that the original would have lesser trebles, but not so!
If the feedback resistor R2 stays the same, the gain increases and the bandwidth decreases as you lower the cartridge Z.

Your high frequency cutoff is now three times lower than it was with the 103, assuming you didnt replace R2 with a lower value to match. This is most likely why you perceive less treble. It could also be that the impedance of the cartridge rises more significantly at high frequencies than the 103 did.

-rjm
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Old 6th June 2006, 04:09 PM   #28
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Hi rjm,
I'm somewhat confused: I've seen you (once?) matched the DL103 with a R2 of 6.8k. I normally use 1.5k both with the DL103 and the DL103-R. I assumed bandwith should be enough, but then, I didn't do the math. With the op27 and the opa627 I tried R2 up to 3k with no audible problems (that with the DL103).
Rüdiger
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Old 7th June 2006, 12:32 AM   #29
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It was just a suggestion... at 1.5k, moving from the 103 to the 103R increases the gain of the input stage from 30 to 40 dB. That's still very much within the safe area given a GBWP of 8Mhz (OP27). The 3dB point moves from 240kHz down to 80 kHz, but that does not affect the response at 20kHz significantly. It wouldnt hurt to try 680 ohms though, just to see if there is any difference. If there is none we can put it down to a difference in the impedance characteristics of the two cartridges, which affects the reponse because the gain of the phonoclone has 1/Zcart as a factor.
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Old 7th June 2006, 10:00 AM   #30
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Hi rjm,
since I'm using the AD811 as frontend, neither a pair of 40/1500 nor of 14/1500 is given in the datasheet. A pair of 51.1/511 (gain of 10) has its -3dB point at 95Mhz. But then... the graph on page 5 quotes ~1.7 Mhz at 1.5k at a gain of +2, who knows how things are at a gain of -107.
So I will check your suggestion.
Rüdiger
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