nuff said, intellectual property.
Really, I didn't intend for this to become a discussion of intellectual property, but rather to point out that if relying or copying a commercial product one ought to be very carefull. As I stated, copying something and passing it off as your own is reprehensible. Yes we can be proud of our efforts, but credit should be made where it is due.
As far as "stealing" , I do agree that if you knowingly copy something, and start selling it, then I'd make sure that I had deep pockets and a really good lawyer.
If you can proove that you had begun the development of your thing before whomever else, then it would be slightly iffy.
I suspect this will be the last time I post on this thread unless specifically questioned. My intent was never to hijack this thread.
Really, I didn't intend for this to become a discussion of intellectual property, but rather to point out that if relying or copying a commercial product one ought to be very carefull. As I stated, copying something and passing it off as your own is reprehensible. Yes we can be proud of our efforts, but credit should be made where it is due.
As far as "stealing" , I do agree that if you knowingly copy something, and start selling it, then I'd make sure that I had deep pockets and a really good lawyer.
If you can proove that you had begun the development of your thing before whomever else, then it would be slightly iffy.
I suspect this will be the last time I post on this thread unless specifically questioned. My intent was never to hijack this thread.
Nanook,
I can understand your concerns about people ripping off other peoples ideas for commercial gain, but I'm pretty sure that they are few and far between. Surely the majority of people here on this forum are here because of their uncontrollable urge to 'make' stuff for their own satisfaction, and if they make something which other people here desire, then that's a bonus.
If a manufacturer becomes aware of a copyright infringement, I'm sure the moderators would be made aware of it pretty quickly, and any threads containing libellous material would be pulled immediately.
I'm curious as to the reason you chose to mention your concerns on this thread though. Has someone posted such material?
It wasn't me was it? Oh no.... I'm panicing now as I'm too poor to afford a lawyer, that's why I DIY.
I can understand your concerns about people ripping off other peoples ideas for commercial gain, but I'm pretty sure that they are few and far between. Surely the majority of people here on this forum are here because of their uncontrollable urge to 'make' stuff for their own satisfaction, and if they make something which other people here desire, then that's a bonus.
If a manufacturer becomes aware of a copyright infringement, I'm sure the moderators would be made aware of it pretty quickly, and any threads containing libellous material would be pulled immediately.
I'm curious as to the reason you chose to mention your concerns on this thread though. Has someone posted such material?
It wasn't me was it? Oh no.... I'm panicing now as I'm too poor to afford a lawyer, that's why I DIY.
bobhayes...I'm poor too
I was kinda of echoing comments made byMr. Scroeder himself in aprevious thread. I guess that, and the sympathy I have for Mr. Scheu and the family he left behind prompted me to make comment. I would hate to think that DIYs or people knocking off his products had anything to do with his choice to end his life.
I am poor too. I understand that not everyone can afford cvertain product. My own tone arm was inspired by the joke Altmann arm. I just used stuff I had available to me for no or little $$$, and the results were /are pretty astounding. It is better in almost everyway to my SME 309 (new series).
No specific finger pointing was intended. It really was just a reminder.
I was kinda of echoing comments made byMr. Scroeder himself in aprevious thread. I guess that, and the sympathy I have for Mr. Scheu and the family he left behind prompted me to make comment. I would hate to think that DIYs or people knocking off his products had anything to do with his choice to end his life.
I am poor too. I understand that not everyone can afford cvertain product. My own tone arm was inspired by the joke Altmann arm. I just used stuff I had available to me for no or little $$$, and the results were /are pretty astounding. It is better in almost everyway to my SME 309 (new series).
No specific finger pointing was intended. It really was just a reminder.
bobhayes said:I understand about keeping the axis of rotation aligned with the headshell to maintain azimuth.
I reckon the trickiest part is guesstimating the correct size for the magnets so as to hold the arm in place, but not drag it from its mount towards one side?
Did you estimate, or calculate? (The maths must be mind boggling!!)
I figure, if the magnets are eqidistant from the pivot and the disk is perfectly round and concentric, then the magnets will not cause any shifting. The pivot point would have to jump out of its socket for the arm to move out of line.
As far as magnet size, I just picked the smallest ones I could find 1/8" dia x 1/8" long.
Max
Re: nuff said, intellectual property.
No offense taken. However, I don't see how we are discussing a copy of anyone's work. I suggested that Bobhayes look at the schroeder arm discussion, because it seemed similar to his idea. Nothing more, nothing less.
I welcome all input in this thread (not that I started it). But, yeah, let's keep it on topic. What are your thoughts on my design?
Max
Nanook said:
No offense taken. However, I don't see how we are discussing a copy of anyone's work. I suggested that Bobhayes look at the schroeder arm discussion, because it seemed similar to his idea. Nothing more, nothing less.
I welcome all input in this thread (not that I started it). But, yeah, let's keep it on topic. What are your thoughts on my design?
Max
Re: Re: Re: to bobhayes... and a rant
Here's a couple links to the 47 Labs arm. The second link has a close-up of the RS-3 pivoting headshell which is available for a standard tonearm:
http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/rs-a1.html
http://www.japanparts.com/Audio/rslabs.htm
Max
choky said:
Here's a couple links to the 47 Labs arm. The second link has a close-up of the RS-3 pivoting headshell which is available for a standard tonearm:
http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/rs-a1.html
http://www.japanparts.com/Audio/rslabs.htm
Max
controlling azimuth with magnets...
Ok, maxro, I looked more closely at your design. it should work, but seems like a very complicated method to produce an easy way to adjust azimuth (If I understand your intent correctly).
Why not have azimuth adjusted by being able to move the conter weight axially about thre tonearm? Very easy to accomplish. I feel that using technology because you can is a waste of your talent. Clever, yes, but will it be more effective than other approaches? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I look forward to your results.
Ok, maxro, I looked more closely at your design. it should work, but seems like a very complicated method to produce an easy way to adjust azimuth (If I understand your intent correctly).
Why not have azimuth adjusted by being able to move the conter weight axially about thre tonearm? Very easy to accomplish. I feel that using technology because you can is a waste of your talent. Clever, yes, but will it be more effective than other approaches? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I look forward to your results.
Re: controlling azimuth with magnets...
It's not to adjust azimuth, so much as to maintain it.
The good aspects of a unipivot are exremly low friction, no bearing chatter and ease of DIYing.
However, the bad attributes are:
1. wobbliness
2. need for a low slung counterweight and high pivot and the resulting fluctuation of tracking force on the stylus when warp riding.
3. change in azimuth while warp riding due to the pivot being horizontally offset from the axis of the cartridge.
A gimball bearing arm solves those problems, but is much harder to DIY. It requires very precise construction and expensive bearings to move smoothly and without play.
The orientation of the magnets in my design ought to make the unipivot behave like a gimball. Free to rotate horizontally around the point and up and down, over warps. The magnet to pivot point platform distance is unchanged in these directions.
Any torsional movement, however, will be corrected by the magnets, as this type of movement would require an increase in distance between the magnets and the platform. Both magnets would move (one up, one down) an equal distance from the platform if you were to force the arm to twist, thus it naturally tends to sit level.
So, if all goes as planned, I'll get the best of both worlds. We'll see, once I get my act together. Doing 3 projects at once isn't exactly speeding things along.
Max
Nanook said:
It's not to adjust azimuth, so much as to maintain it.
The good aspects of a unipivot are exremly low friction, no bearing chatter and ease of DIYing.
However, the bad attributes are:
1. wobbliness
2. need for a low slung counterweight and high pivot and the resulting fluctuation of tracking force on the stylus when warp riding.
3. change in azimuth while warp riding due to the pivot being horizontally offset from the axis of the cartridge.
A gimball bearing arm solves those problems, but is much harder to DIY. It requires very precise construction and expensive bearings to move smoothly and without play.
The orientation of the magnets in my design ought to make the unipivot behave like a gimball. Free to rotate horizontally around the point and up and down, over warps. The magnet to pivot point platform distance is unchanged in these directions.
Any torsional movement, however, will be corrected by the magnets, as this type of movement would require an increase in distance between the magnets and the platform. Both magnets would move (one up, one down) an equal distance from the platform if you were to force the arm to twist, thus it naturally tends to sit level.
So, if all goes as planned, I'll get the best of both worlds. We'll see, once I get my act together. Doing 3 projects at once isn't exactly speeding things along.
Max
Oh my! I've just seen that headshell with adjustable azimuth. If there's one place where we don't want extra mass and a loss of rigidity, it's the headshell.
Taking maxro's points:
1. True, but it can be reduced.
2. Many arms are like this. But they don't have to be. My arm has its pivot at record height and has the counterweight only sufficiently low that the centre of gravity is fractionally loweer than the pivot.
3. True, but this is minimised if the stylus is on the centre axis of the arm.
Have a look at my arm and see what you think.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10171
Taking maxro's points:
1. True, but it can be reduced.
2. Many arms are like this. But they don't have to be. My arm has its pivot at record height and has the counterweight only sufficiently low that the centre of gravity is fractionally loweer than the pivot.
3. True, but this is minimised if the stylus is on the centre axis of the arm.
Have a look at my arm and see what you think.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10171
EC8010 said:
Do you mean the 47 Labs headshell? It doesn't adjust azimuth, it auto-corrects for tracking angle across the plane of the record. And is also supposed to isolate the arm from affecting cartridge resonances. I don't know about that second point. I think it would just make calculating the resonant frequency more compicated as we have two pendula to deal with. I agree, it seems like a crazy idea, but that's not going to stop me from trying it.
On point 3: The stylus being on centre will prevent sagging of the arm when you drop the needle onto the record, but azimuth will still change as the arm moves over bumps. It is a function of the cartridge being at an angle to the line from pivot to stylus. The way to avoid this, without placing limitations (magnetic or otherwise) on the unipivot, is to make the arm so long that an offset headshell isn't necessary. Or, use the pivoting headshell and a short arm can be used with no offset.
I had a look at your arm. Nice work. I like your logic, too. Why buy an expensive tonearm when you can spend that money on fun tools to make your own?
I may make two arms, one with pivoting headshell and one without.
Max
the cables must be wrapped...
metalized mylar is sometimes sold as "emergency blankets" , you know those ultra thin, I can't possibly stay warm with THAT...
http://www.hisystems.co.uk/emergblk.htm
cheap and enough mylar to last a lifetime!. I'd just tape a tinned end of a wire to the mylar. Should work. Alternately you can use thicker tin foil or light weight copper foil if you can find some. Not sure if anyone sells a DIY type wire shielding material ...
metalized mylar is sometimes sold as "emergency blankets" , you know those ultra thin, I can't possibly stay warm with THAT...
http://www.hisystems.co.uk/emergblk.htm
cheap and enough mylar to last a lifetime!. I'd just tape a tinned end of a wire to the mylar. Should work. Alternately you can use thicker tin foil or light weight copper foil if you can find some. Not sure if anyone sells a DIY type wire shielding material ...
Yet another way that I've used before is to salvage some of the braid from a section of co-ax. when you pull it correctly, it reduces in girth, AND you can solder it without difficulty. You can also pull threads out to reduce mass if required.
I've been toying with a uni-pivot design that I'd like some comments on. The problem I percieve with many unipivots is a tendancy for dynamics to be compressed. This usually is because all of the motion as well as the securement of the arm rests about one bearing, which often is given to a degree of play. Without getting embroiled into any spurious debates, I'd cite the Naim Arrow as having this virtue inbuilt in its very concept. Where there is a feasability for transient energy from the disk to pull the arm along with it (and don't forget the the compensatatory rearward motion) this is definately going to happen. Although I can understand the numerous intrinsic virtues of magnetically stabilised bearings, I cannot for one moment imagine that a magnet will absolutely resist a transient pull or "drag" which for my mind, puts it in the same arena. Also, by decoupling the arm from any kind of securing, you're also depriving it of any means of rapidly dissipating any standing energy. Hmm.
I remember reading a review some years ago of a Well Tempered design that incorporated a silver high mass tone arm apparently supported only by "fishing line!". The vague description simply got my brain fuzzing over the different ways in which this could be accomplished. After battering all of the first ideas that sprang to mind, I came up with what I hope is a fairly origional idea that owes more to the torsional properties of fishing line than any thing else.
The "bearing" consists of a horizontal coupling between the tonearm and the mounting, being the smallest measure of line required to execute the arc (dependant on the tonearm length of course) of an LP. Where the couplings are coneshaped, the degree of line required should be short enough to bear the weight of the arm without showing any secondary flexing. In order to provide a mechanical link with the base to dissipate residual energy, some measure of the arm (preferably towards the "bearing") should be immersed in a heavy silicone solution.
Other than that, all of the usual gravitational control methods apply. Any thoughts?
Cheers, Jezz
I've been toying with a uni-pivot design that I'd like some comments on. The problem I percieve with many unipivots is a tendancy for dynamics to be compressed. This usually is because all of the motion as well as the securement of the arm rests about one bearing, which often is given to a degree of play. Without getting embroiled into any spurious debates, I'd cite the Naim Arrow as having this virtue inbuilt in its very concept. Where there is a feasability for transient energy from the disk to pull the arm along with it (and don't forget the the compensatatory rearward motion) this is definately going to happen. Although I can understand the numerous intrinsic virtues of magnetically stabilised bearings, I cannot for one moment imagine that a magnet will absolutely resist a transient pull or "drag" which for my mind, puts it in the same arena. Also, by decoupling the arm from any kind of securing, you're also depriving it of any means of rapidly dissipating any standing energy. Hmm.
I remember reading a review some years ago of a Well Tempered design that incorporated a silver high mass tone arm apparently supported only by "fishing line!". The vague description simply got my brain fuzzing over the different ways in which this could be accomplished. After battering all of the first ideas that sprang to mind, I came up with what I hope is a fairly origional idea that owes more to the torsional properties of fishing line than any thing else.
The "bearing" consists of a horizontal coupling between the tonearm and the mounting, being the smallest measure of line required to execute the arc (dependant on the tonearm length of course) of an LP. Where the couplings are coneshaped, the degree of line required should be short enough to bear the weight of the arm without showing any secondary flexing. In order to provide a mechanical link with the base to dissipate residual energy, some measure of the arm (preferably towards the "bearing") should be immersed in a heavy silicone solution.
Other than that, all of the usual gravitational control methods apply. Any thoughts?
Cheers, Jezz
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