Daz,
My experience with Silmics is that they need at least a 14 days (3-4 hours a day playing) break in period? I did buy the complete Phonoclone 3 kit, the Nichicons supplied in the kit also needed a lot of time to break in, maybe due to the very small AC signals.
I just had the worst two days with my Phonoclone 3 after changing the kits output caps for Black Gates N series 4.7uF 50V. The Phonoclone sounded very dull right after the change and it took 16 hours before they started to sound a little better.
Ronald.
My experience with Silmics is that they need at least a 14 days (3-4 hours a day playing) break in period? I did buy the complete Phonoclone 3 kit, the Nichicons supplied in the kit also needed a lot of time to break in, maybe due to the very small AC signals.
I just had the worst two days with my Phonoclone 3 after changing the kits output caps for Black Gates N series 4.7uF 50V. The Phonoclone sounded very dull right after the change and it took 16 hours before they started to sound a little better.
Ronald.
Hi Ronald and Martin, yes I mean the 100uf bypass caps.
I realise I may have over done the power supply as the xreg is being fed by a LM317 and LM337 regs.
I am going to try the recommended supply, of a rectified transformer Tomorrow, so I'll see how it goes.
It does sound dull and shut in at the moment though.
I used an ESP phono board before this and the sound was excellent but needed a head amp, something I'm trying to avoid.
Thanks for your reply, I'll let you know how it goes.
Darrell.
I realise I may have over done the power supply as the xreg is being fed by a LM317 and LM337 regs.
I am going to try the recommended supply, of a rectified transformer Tomorrow, so I'll see how it goes.
It does sound dull and shut in at the moment though.
I used an ESP phono board before this and the sound was excellent but needed a head amp, something I'm trying to avoid.
Thanks for your reply, I'll let you know how it goes.
Darrell.
Darell after a some time of living with an x-reg fed phono I see no reason to use anything else to feed it with "cleaner" power. It sounds and performs amazing as it is.
The only reason you might consider the LMs or the 78s is to keep the psu simple, but since you already built the x-reg just let it do its own thing and you will not regret it.
I was also going to try many things (planned while the caps were breaking in) but now I just do not want to try anything... there s no point "fixing" something that does not need it....
Just give your caps about a month to break in and do not rush things (this comes from a really impatient dude....). Some things just need their time...
Oh and try to use a MUR diode for the rectifiers. They make a huge difference over plain square bridges (even vishay ones). Oh and the biggest torroid that can fit in your chassis
PS
Small update on the Hammond 160VA toroids... The 182Q12 has so much inrush current powering up that it slowly roasts the 2A slow burn fuses... If anyone is considering them, I would propose using a soft-start kit with them.
Well folks, I'm just back from a very pleasant evening with my friend The Guitarist, who has got his Phonoclone up and running. The version he has is one of a 'limited edition' kit run, just before the version with the X-reg came out. Previously he was using one of Tom Evans Finestra preamps as a phono stage. The line pre-amp is one of the group buy black-board DC-coupled Pass B1 buffers, hot-rodded. He is using the new B-boards with his Phonoclone.
The Guitarist is a self confessed 'picky £@^$!@^%' and his initial impression was that the Phonoclone was a bit better than the Finestra. By the time I'd dropped 'round to listen his initial reaction had changed to deeply impressed. This is the first chance I've had to listen to a Phonoclone and it really is very good indeed. Turntable is a Townshend Rock 2 with an SME 309 and an AT OC-9 cartridge. The amp/ speaker end of things is DIY, active and complicated, involving Pass F5s, RAAL tweeters, Audax mids Peerless XLS 12s, etc. The sound with the Phonoclone was easily the best I've heard at The Guitarist's place, and made CDs sound distinctly second-rate, despite the Buffalo II DAC, assuming the record itself was any good. Difficult to highlight particular strengths- everything seemed to be better. If pressed, I'd say that instruments and voices had greater separation and were more distinctive- generally everything sounded clearer. Bass guitars seemed very easy to follow for example. Some negative aspects of the system's sound that we'd assumed were loudspeaker cabinet artifacts largely disappeared, much to our surprise. The Guitarist is very pleased and I've been told to pass on his thanks for the design. Now I'm going to have to build mine...
The Guitarist is a self confessed 'picky £@^$!@^%' and his initial impression was that the Phonoclone was a bit better than the Finestra. By the time I'd dropped 'round to listen his initial reaction had changed to deeply impressed. This is the first chance I've had to listen to a Phonoclone and it really is very good indeed. Turntable is a Townshend Rock 2 with an SME 309 and an AT OC-9 cartridge. The amp/ speaker end of things is DIY, active and complicated, involving Pass F5s, RAAL tweeters, Audax mids Peerless XLS 12s, etc. The sound with the Phonoclone was easily the best I've heard at The Guitarist's place, and made CDs sound distinctly second-rate, despite the Buffalo II DAC, assuming the record itself was any good. Difficult to highlight particular strengths- everything seemed to be better. If pressed, I'd say that instruments and voices had greater separation and were more distinctive- generally everything sounded clearer. Bass guitars seemed very easy to follow for example. Some negative aspects of the system's sound that we'd assumed were loudspeaker cabinet artifacts largely disappeared, much to our surprise. The Guitarist is very pleased and I've been told to pass on his thanks for the design. Now I'm going to have to build mine...
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That's right Richard, it was the BE. I couldn't resist buying the latest Xreg version and so passed the BE on to The Guitarist. At some point he's looking to get a Dynavector DV17 Mk3, as he was very happy with his Mk 2 before it dropped a channel. Output was comparable or slightly higher than the DAC, incidentally, so plenty of gain. The Guitarist reckons the Phonoclone is the one of the biggest bargains in audio, DIY or otherwise, and as usual he's absolutely right.
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Well 2 days with the new psu and I'm very pleased, the new diodes haven't arrived yet though.
There is however one other problem.
I don't know it anyone else has had this, but when my son is home his mobile phone is interfering with the unit.
both the psu and pc3 are mounted in steel cases and grounded.
Any clues fellas? (without kicking the boy out).
Cheers.
Darrell..
There is however one other problem.
I don't know it anyone else has had this, but when my son is home his mobile phone is interfering with the unit.
both the psu and pc3 are mounted in steel cases and grounded.
Any clues fellas? (without kicking the boy out).
Cheers.
Darrell..
The radio station is a sign of long and badly grounded/shielded/tagled cartridge or input cables. It s a sign that you need to better arrange the inner and outer wiring. Signal and power ones. Phono and turntable ones.
I never had a problem with the mobile, but I guess that all devices with amplification have some issues with them. Just keep it away from the phono
I never had a problem with the mobile, but I guess that all devices with amplification have some issues with them. Just keep it away from the phono
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Cables should be fully shielded and grounded at both ends. That's just good practice, but it is doubly important for high gain, low signal situations like MC phono stages.
The level of RFI pickup is a function of the signal strength, the receiving sensitivity (the efficiency of your audio system to act as an antenna), the circuit sensitivity (how well the circuit demodulates the RF signal into AF), and, finally, by the effectiveness of any countermeasures taken.
No strong RFI sources nearby, no problem, no matter how lazy your cable routing is.
However, the bipolar inputs of the OPA27 are pretty good at demodulating RF, and as stock there is no RFI protection built into the phonoclone circuit. If your cabling has any predisposition to act as an antenna, therefore, it will readily result in audible interference.
Fortunately, the cap-on-the-input trick seems to solve things 70-80% of the time.
I would like to share some of my findings with two Phonoclones (PCBs 3.5c).
The first Phonoclone (a complete kit) I bought January this year, the second PC I bought a month or so later, this was not a complete PC kit, I did get the PCBs with most of the parts but not all.
The first one was kept original till lately. With the second one I experimented with a 78/79xx supply. With both I tried one and two PSUs with different Toroids
The only change on the first one was that I replaced the ouput cap of the kit by a Black Gate N series 4.7uF 50V, this because I found that the output cap in the kit sounded nice but thin (no bottom end). With the BG N series it sounds as there is no cap present.
I changed the second PC such a way that it does not need output caps (very low output offset of 1 - 5 mV).
The sound difference between PC one with X-reg and PC two with 78/7912 supply both with the same 50VA 12+12V Triad toroid was very small.
Following only tested on the second PC. Using 78/7915 regs on PC2 gave a duller and less dynamic sound. Using a single 225VA toroid 15+15V toroid did make it more dull. A 100VA 18+18V toroid sounded as good as the 50VA 12+12V toroid (78/7912 used). It seems as 225VA is overkill wich worsened the sound quality.
I tried BG STD 220uF 16V decoupling caps instead of the Nichicons 100uF16V the difference is just marginal with no winner. I did not have enough 100uF 16V BGs in stock.
I changed the dual Vishay bridges into a single bridge made of four MUR820. This change was a big jump forward. A faster and more open sound.
I also tried OPA627s instead of the OPA27s. Although it is said they sound better and have more detail I did not hear it, they sounded a bit softer as the OPA27s. The OPA27s gave better pace and rythm (more foot tapping sound). I stayed with the OPA27s.
Two toroids instead of one...I only could test with two 50VA 12+12V toroids.
The sound quality did marginal improve on the PC2 but there sure is more width, depth and space. On PC1 two toroids gave tripple more width, depth and space but also changed the sound quality it became harsh (a shouting kind of sound), the kind of sound that tells you to turn the volume control to the left.
I did learn a lot last months experimenting with the two PCs. Is there someone who can explain my findings with PC1 and the double toroid supply? Did try it twice with different connectors but with the same result.
The first Phonoclone (a complete kit) I bought January this year, the second PC I bought a month or so later, this was not a complete PC kit, I did get the PCBs with most of the parts but not all.
The first one was kept original till lately. With the second one I experimented with a 78/79xx supply. With both I tried one and two PSUs with different Toroids
The only change on the first one was that I replaced the ouput cap of the kit by a Black Gate N series 4.7uF 50V, this because I found that the output cap in the kit sounded nice but thin (no bottom end). With the BG N series it sounds as there is no cap present.
I changed the second PC such a way that it does not need output caps (very low output offset of 1 - 5 mV).
The sound difference between PC one with X-reg and PC two with 78/7912 supply both with the same 50VA 12+12V Triad toroid was very small.
Following only tested on the second PC. Using 78/7915 regs on PC2 gave a duller and less dynamic sound. Using a single 225VA toroid 15+15V toroid did make it more dull. A 100VA 18+18V toroid sounded as good as the 50VA 12+12V toroid (78/7912 used). It seems as 225VA is overkill wich worsened the sound quality.
I tried BG STD 220uF 16V decoupling caps instead of the Nichicons 100uF16V the difference is just marginal with no winner. I did not have enough 100uF 16V BGs in stock.
I changed the dual Vishay bridges into a single bridge made of four MUR820. This change was a big jump forward. A faster and more open sound.
I also tried OPA627s instead of the OPA27s. Although it is said they sound better and have more detail I did not hear it, they sounded a bit softer as the OPA27s. The OPA27s gave better pace and rythm (more foot tapping sound). I stayed with the OPA27s.
Two toroids instead of one...I only could test with two 50VA 12+12V toroids.
The sound quality did marginal improve on the PC2 but there sure is more width, depth and space. On PC1 two toroids gave tripple more width, depth and space but also changed the sound quality it became harsh (a shouting kind of sound), the kind of sound that tells you to turn the volume control to the left.
I did learn a lot last months experimenting with the two PCs. Is there someone who can explain my findings with PC1 and the double toroid supply? Did try it twice with different connectors but with the same result.
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Your findings with PC1 agree with what I have experienced with x-reg. Dual transformer and bigger transformer gave a big improvement in clarity and stage width.
About the harshness, could it be that your VTA is on the high-side and the increased clarity brought it up? Do you use MURs on PC1?
About the harshness, could it be that your VTA is on the high-side and the increased clarity brought it up? Do you use MURs on PC1?
I use single bridges of four MUR820s on both toroids (MUR820 = MUR860 only difference they are 200V types and some datasheets say the 820 is faster as the 860). I recently checked my VTA, arm is level. Again listened to the PC1 with double PSU but after an hour I could not stand it and returned to PC2 (wich sounds very good with the same VTA). Maybe the BG N-series need more time to break in, they are in PC1 for a week now.
Ronald.
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