I know anti-skating is there to prevent the cartridge from swinging in towards the centre, but why is this necessary? Would this not push the stylus up against the outer edge of the groove, emphasising that channel of the stereo at the expenxe of the channel encoded on the inner groove?
I can't hear any real difference on my turntable with anti-skating applied or not, but then again it not the greatest of turntable front-ends (Lenco L78 and a cheap ortofon cart fed into an even cheaper op-amp phono pre-amp kitset job).
I can't hear any real difference on my turntable with anti-skating applied or not, but then again it not the greatest of turntable front-ends (Lenco L78 and a cheap ortofon cart fed into an even cheaper op-amp phono pre-amp kitset job).
The question has puzzled me since I was kid, never got a good answer intil now.
It's unimportant if you have a very long and (straight) arm!
If you have a completely straight tone arm, what happens if you apply a force exactly away from the suspension point? Nothing, just a force in the same direction as the arm, no skating!
But, normal arms 10-12" long must have some angle of the pickup in order to get a decent tracking error, minimum at the centre (of the engraved surface) on the LP. This angle creates a force (due to friction in the vinyl) which direction is NOT from the suspension point. One composant of the force is straight in the arm direction and the other one is towards the LP center. This force must eliminated with a contra force (force the arm out) in order to prohibit the arm to dance "jenka" over the tracks.
Did anyone understand my explaination?
The purpose of anti-skating:
1 Prevent skating, not very pleasant for the LP, or your ears.
2 Prevent wear in the inner wall of the track.
My question to the expertice: Why does a elliptical stylus need more anti-skating force than a round one?
It's unimportant if you have a very long and (straight) arm!
If you have a completely straight tone arm, what happens if you apply a force exactly away from the suspension point? Nothing, just a force in the same direction as the arm, no skating!
But, normal arms 10-12" long must have some angle of the pickup in order to get a decent tracking error, minimum at the centre (of the engraved surface) on the LP. This angle creates a force (due to friction in the vinyl) which direction is NOT from the suspension point. One composant of the force is straight in the arm direction and the other one is towards the LP center. This force must eliminated with a contra force (force the arm out) in order to prohibit the arm to dance "jenka" over the tracks.
Did anyone understand my explaination?
The purpose of anti-skating:
1 Prevent skating, not very pleasant for the LP, or your ears.
2 Prevent wear in the inner wall of the track.
My question to the expertice: Why does a elliptical stylus need more anti-skating force than a round one?
Ok folks,
peranders is right, but his statement is not complete.
So i take another swing on it.
Imagine a flowing river. Now hang a paddle into it. Angle different to flow direction. The river's flowing water will exert friction and stream forces on the paddle. AS the flowing direction is not aligned parallel with the paddle's blade, stream force exert a momentum trying to rotate the baddle until its blade is aligned with the flowing direction. Then the momentum becomes zero and the only forces remaining are the friction forces trying to pull the paddle out of your hand.
So: the skating force's origin (in fact the SF is a momentum referenced to tonearm pivot) is exactly the same of the momentum caused by stream forces described above. "Flowing direction" is the groove tangent thru the stylus tip. As the tonearm has a headshell with an offset angle to minimize lateral tracking error and as the phono cartridge is aligned to that heasdshell, the groove tangent has a distance to the tonearm pivot. So a momentum develops turning the tonearm towards the spindle. Like the paddle in the river.
The purpose of anti-skating:
1st
Prevent skating, not very pleasant for the LP, or your ears.
2nd
Prevent wear in the inner wall of the track.
3rd and sonically important
horizontally bias the generator system of the phono cartridge.
The phono cartridge has its cantilever suspended in rubber. This rubber acts like a pair (or quad) of highly progressive springs (and that damping is built-in is secondary for tis consideration) which menas that the sping forces rise more than linear with excursion. If now the cantilever is biased out of its center position, acceleration forces spindle-wards and edge-wards become different. Different enough to spoil sonics.
Obvious the same has to happen in vertical direction ; proper adjustment of tracking force yields in similar sonic benefits as proper AS adjustment does.
To give you a figure, actual skating force is almost constant over the tonearm's sweeping angle and it is about 8 to 10% of the tracking force.
peranders, you ask why elliptic styli have different AS forces than conical ones. I have no comprehensive answer for that. IMO each stylus has a slightly different AS force/tracking force cocktail because friction differs. According to what i described below, i would not trust any AS scale printed on a tonearm. I would trust my ears only.
Sonic mess caused by improper AS adjustment becomes apparent in microdynamics, macrodynamics, transients. Left and right channel behaves different.
I decribe below a possible approach to adjust AS by ear. But before you get lost, consider this adjustments are well audible on a top-notch TT. I have no experinece if and how the sonic changes expose themselves on a Lenco.
------------------------
(copied from an earlier JoeNet post)
short advice to adjust the cartridge:
let's presume that overhang and offset angle are already correctly aligned, estimated tracking force and skating compensation adjusted.
1. Adjust correct azimuth by slighltly turning your headshell and listen to a stereo recording how soundstage changes its size, perspective and balance or: measure the crosstalk between left and right channel: adjust so that crosstalk L=>R is *EQUAL* to R=>L crosstalk. If you find the Ortofon Test Record 0002, you can do this by ear.
2. select a mono recording with female voice (dynamic!!) and a lot happening around. Relax and concentrate.
3. Wrong vertical tracking angle (VTA) lets her voice go wider and wider as she sings louder. Real wrong VTA lets her voice go cinemascope from left to right speaker.
Adjust VTA so that the voice has the maximum focus (minimum size and maximum shape of virtual sound sources). The louder she sings/screams the smaller her mouth has to appear; this is clearly audible at the right VTA position. This optimum is very narrow: within 2/100 of a millimetre of vertical tonearm position.
4.Find the tracking force with best dynamics and micro dynamics and most believable sound colours. This optimum also is very narrow.
5. Have a rest. You may have to repeat steps 3 and 4 : you need the maximum resolution for the following.
6. Have a rest. Select a premium stereo recording. Relax and concentrate again.
7. Adjust the skating force to zero and prepare yourself for a mean experience. The right channel will not show dynamics at all; it will sit in the corner totally bored and ignoring you. The left channel will sit in its corner like an evil ghost, considering to attack you in the next moment. It will sound very dynamic in a way that numbs the left half of your body. However, the dynamics will be nightmare-like artificial.
Now you increase the skating force to a quarter and then to a half of the expected value. You will sense that the right channel comes more-and-more alive and the left channel sounds less dynamic, intimidating and artificial. This reduction is less than the increase of dynamics in the right channel; the while system becomes more dynamic. You increase now the skating compensation by *very* small steps until you reach a point where left and right channel sound equally dynamic. Then you increase further very small steps; both channels will grow more dynamic. One step too far and both channels loose their dynamics completely and sound dead. So you go back to the position where dynamics and microdynamics were maximum.
8. Note down *all* positions, scale readings, input impedances/capacitances and so on (you may want to mount another cartridge later and then find you loathe it) .
Done.
I never had the skating compensation's scale read above the
tracking force scale, always below!
Usually 60-70% of the value expected by the scale prinited on the tonearm.
peranders is right, but his statement is not complete.
So i take another swing on it.
Imagine a flowing river. Now hang a paddle into it. Angle different to flow direction. The river's flowing water will exert friction and stream forces on the paddle. AS the flowing direction is not aligned parallel with the paddle's blade, stream force exert a momentum trying to rotate the baddle until its blade is aligned with the flowing direction. Then the momentum becomes zero and the only forces remaining are the friction forces trying to pull the paddle out of your hand.
So: the skating force's origin (in fact the SF is a momentum referenced to tonearm pivot) is exactly the same of the momentum caused by stream forces described above. "Flowing direction" is the groove tangent thru the stylus tip. As the tonearm has a headshell with an offset angle to minimize lateral tracking error and as the phono cartridge is aligned to that heasdshell, the groove tangent has a distance to the tonearm pivot. So a momentum develops turning the tonearm towards the spindle. Like the paddle in the river.
The purpose of anti-skating:
1st
Prevent skating, not very pleasant for the LP, or your ears.
2nd
Prevent wear in the inner wall of the track.
3rd and sonically important
horizontally bias the generator system of the phono cartridge.
The phono cartridge has its cantilever suspended in rubber. This rubber acts like a pair (or quad) of highly progressive springs (and that damping is built-in is secondary for tis consideration) which menas that the sping forces rise more than linear with excursion. If now the cantilever is biased out of its center position, acceleration forces spindle-wards and edge-wards become different. Different enough to spoil sonics.
Obvious the same has to happen in vertical direction ; proper adjustment of tracking force yields in similar sonic benefits as proper AS adjustment does.
To give you a figure, actual skating force is almost constant over the tonearm's sweeping angle and it is about 8 to 10% of the tracking force.
peranders, you ask why elliptic styli have different AS forces than conical ones. I have no comprehensive answer for that. IMO each stylus has a slightly different AS force/tracking force cocktail because friction differs. According to what i described below, i would not trust any AS scale printed on a tonearm. I would trust my ears only.
Sonic mess caused by improper AS adjustment becomes apparent in microdynamics, macrodynamics, transients. Left and right channel behaves different.
I decribe below a possible approach to adjust AS by ear. But before you get lost, consider this adjustments are well audible on a top-notch TT. I have no experinece if and how the sonic changes expose themselves on a Lenco.
------------------------
(copied from an earlier JoeNet post)
short advice to adjust the cartridge:
let's presume that overhang and offset angle are already correctly aligned, estimated tracking force and skating compensation adjusted.
1. Adjust correct azimuth by slighltly turning your headshell and listen to a stereo recording how soundstage changes its size, perspective and balance or: measure the crosstalk between left and right channel: adjust so that crosstalk L=>R is *EQUAL* to R=>L crosstalk. If you find the Ortofon Test Record 0002, you can do this by ear.
2. select a mono recording with female voice (dynamic!!) and a lot happening around. Relax and concentrate.
3. Wrong vertical tracking angle (VTA) lets her voice go wider and wider as she sings louder. Real wrong VTA lets her voice go cinemascope from left to right speaker.
Adjust VTA so that the voice has the maximum focus (minimum size and maximum shape of virtual sound sources). The louder she sings/screams the smaller her mouth has to appear; this is clearly audible at the right VTA position. This optimum is very narrow: within 2/100 of a millimetre of vertical tonearm position.
4.Find the tracking force with best dynamics and micro dynamics and most believable sound colours. This optimum also is very narrow.
5. Have a rest. You may have to repeat steps 3 and 4 : you need the maximum resolution for the following.
6. Have a rest. Select a premium stereo recording. Relax and concentrate again.
7. Adjust the skating force to zero and prepare yourself for a mean experience. The right channel will not show dynamics at all; it will sit in the corner totally bored and ignoring you. The left channel will sit in its corner like an evil ghost, considering to attack you in the next moment. It will sound very dynamic in a way that numbs the left half of your body. However, the dynamics will be nightmare-like artificial.
Now you increase the skating force to a quarter and then to a half of the expected value. You will sense that the right channel comes more-and-more alive and the left channel sounds less dynamic, intimidating and artificial. This reduction is less than the increase of dynamics in the right channel; the while system becomes more dynamic. You increase now the skating compensation by *very* small steps until you reach a point where left and right channel sound equally dynamic. Then you increase further very small steps; both channels will grow more dynamic. One step too far and both channels loose their dynamics completely and sound dead. So you go back to the position where dynamics and microdynamics were maximum.
8. Note down *all* positions, scale readings, input impedances/capacitances and so on (you may want to mount another cartridge later and then find you loathe it) .
Done.
I never had the skating compensation's scale read above the
tracking force scale, always below!
Usually 60-70% of the value expected by the scale prinited on the tonearm.
peranders,
a complete straight tone arm would have to be a linear tracking one where the pivoting point is somewhere far away (for you it probably would be in Spain)
For setting antiskating force I use a somewhat easier method (although I will try the one mentioned by Berhard).
Use a test record with a tracking test. Normally at 70, 80 or 90 mu the cartridge starts to misbehave (i.e. distort). Now I adjust the antiskating until the distortion starts at the same time in the right and left channnel.
william
a complete straight tone arm would have to be a linear tracking one where the pivoting point is somewhere far away (for you it probably would be in Spain)
For setting antiskating force I use a somewhat easier method (although I will try the one mentioned by Berhard).
Use a test record with a tracking test. Normally at 70, 80 or 90 mu the cartridge starts to misbehave (i.e. distort). Now I adjust the antiskating until the distortion starts at the same time in the right and left channnel.
william
William,
so i did before AllenWright showed me this method to do it by ear.
The test record brings you in the ball park, not more. And you never know if your test record survived the last mistracking
BTW, also the test record will disagree with the tonearm's AS scale.
And the blank band test, too; surpisingly the blank band test agrees closely with the adjustment by ear.
so i did before AllenWright showed me this method to do it by ear.
The test record brings you in the ball park, not more. And you never know if your test record survived the last mistracking
BTW, also the test record will disagree with the tonearm's AS scale.
And the blank band test, too; surpisingly the blank band test agrees closely with the adjustment by ear.
Skating is very variable
Spandau Ballet's drummer may be left-handed, because his ride cymbal appears on the ride side on my stereo. Without anti-skating, I could barely hear it. With strong anti-skating, it became impressive. But i think, i had too much anti-skating, and with less of it, the ride now sounds like mastered with 44 KHz sampling rate. Skating changes sound, end of the line.
I do not care for influence of modulation into skating force, because modulation is only temporary and drowns in arm inertia, or at least i have no means to handle the effect.
I assume, that skating stays the same with different tip-to-groove speeds, because friction between solid-state bodies have this Haft-/Gleitreibung issue. I also assume, that skating goes linearily with radial vector of tangent/arm parallelogram. So we have a ruffly 2 to 1 variation in static skating.
A weight on thread over a support fixed to a lever is a lame anti-skating device, because it has only that few force variation of horizontal arm angle, which is around than 1.3 to 1. Theoretically better were a spring; with proper length of spring and lever, we get much variation. Downside is susceptibility to vibration. Optimum were a magnetic device.
Spandau Ballet's drummer may be left-handed, because his ride cymbal appears on the ride side on my stereo. Without anti-skating, I could barely hear it. With strong anti-skating, it became impressive. But i think, i had too much anti-skating, and with less of it, the ride now sounds like mastered with 44 KHz sampling rate. Skating changes sound, end of the line.
I do not care for influence of modulation into skating force, because modulation is only temporary and drowns in arm inertia, or at least i have no means to handle the effect.
I assume, that skating stays the same with different tip-to-groove speeds, because friction between solid-state bodies have this Haft-/Gleitreibung issue. I also assume, that skating goes linearily with radial vector of tangent/arm parallelogram. So we have a ruffly 2 to 1 variation in static skating.
A weight on thread over a support fixed to a lever is a lame anti-skating device, because it has only that few force variation of horizontal arm angle, which is around than 1.3 to 1. Theoretically better were a spring; with proper length of spring and lever, we get much variation. Downside is susceptibility to vibration. Optimum were a magnetic device.
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Imo, a table without SRA/VTA or AS adjustment on the fly is not technically up to date and hence, inferior. Tuning it like a radio while listening is the way to get it perfect with insight to the changing sq as it fades in to optimal and out with over adjustments. It's actually very simple
Hello
Well, pico, a weight+thread+support+lever anti-skating system is simple and can help.
I set mine such, that the needle stays centered on the end spiral of a long LP, meaning no static horizontal force. The reasoning is, that, using a spherical tip, most problems occur on the end of a LP record, where i shall get at least the skating issue rite.
Gleitreibung depends only on the force, with which both bodies are pressed together, and a material-with-material constant. Velocity not involved (except, that v>0, else it is Haftreibung), geometry not involved.
I have a Pickering, too. Rather heavy but nice.
Pete, i still edited my post, your quote contains a big mistake. Why do you mention vertical tracking angle, is this not usually fixed around 20°, while Decca had their own ideas about it, but anyway it changes only mostly channel seperation? How could one adjust that while playing that record?
If i were to really get grips with it, i would strive to be able to adjust horizontal angle more finely than I can now and have a test LP side with a static skating-detect signal (4KHz with -20dB?) from start to end.
Well, pico, a weight+thread+support+lever anti-skating system is simple and can help.
I set mine such, that the needle stays centered on the end spiral of a long LP, meaning no static horizontal force. The reasoning is, that, using a spherical tip, most problems occur on the end of a LP record, where i shall get at least the skating issue rite.
Gleitreibung depends only on the force, with which both bodies are pressed together, and a material-with-material constant. Velocity not involved (except, that v>0, else it is Haftreibung), geometry not involved.
I have a Pickering, too. Rather heavy but nice.
Pete, i still edited my post, your quote contains a big mistake. Why do you mention vertical tracking angle, is this not usually fixed around 20°, while Decca had their own ideas about it, but anyway it changes only mostly channel seperation? How could one adjust that while playing that record?
If i were to really get grips with it, i would strive to be able to adjust horizontal angle more finely than I can now and have a test LP side with a static skating-detect signal (4KHz with -20dB?) from start to end.
The optimum would be a strain gauge cartridge as you could actively measure the skate force and compensate. oddly no one did this in the days when strain gauges were in vogue. probably because it would require a complete integrated unit.
This is a shame because antiskate varies all over the plate. You can prove geometrically that it even reverses direction at points of the record. None of the antiskate methods that tonearms use really address this, which is why some people advise to turn AS off and just up tracking force a bit.
There is of course the well tempered Royale Well Tempered Lab Blog | Weblog for the Well Tempered Lab, The designs of William Firebaugh
This is a shame because antiskate varies all over the plate. You can prove geometrically that it even reverses direction at points of the record. None of the antiskate methods that tonearms use really address this, which is why some people advise to turn AS off and just up tracking force a bit.
There is of course the well tempered Royale Well Tempered Lab Blog | Weblog for the Well Tempered Lab, The designs of William Firebaugh
I must have missed that lecture in my physics classes. Could you please provide a sketch that shows this?
Ray K
I'll dig out the post that shows this which was put on vinylengine a couple of weeks back.
EDIT post 3 here from Lini. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=97466
EDIT post 3 here from Lini. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=97466
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My bad, static skating is quasi constant
But it is not true, at least not for usual hifi turntables with 9" arm on a fixed pivot. I am sorry, that i, too, propagated this mistake. Angle between groove tangent and tracking-point-to-arm-pivot line is nearly constant for any radius between 5.5 and 14.5 cm. This angle is around one hour. I had a maxi single with blank back, and indeed using a usual anti-skating device i could much lessen skating for any radius.
We could calculate static skating force. Tracking force times vinyl-to-diamond slide friction coefficient is total static friction force pulling on the arm. We draw a rite-angle triangle with the arm as hypothenuse, tangent and skating force and see, that skating is a bit less than half of total friction force.
But it is not true, at least not for usual hifi turntables with 9" arm on a fixed pivot. I am sorry, that i, too, propagated this mistake. Angle between groove tangent and tracking-point-to-arm-pivot line is nearly constant for any radius between 5.5 and 14.5 cm. This angle is around one hour. I had a maxi single with blank back, and indeed using a usual anti-skating device i could much lessen skating for any radius.
We could calculate static skating force. Tracking force times vinyl-to-diamond slide friction coefficient is total static friction force pulling on the arm. We draw a rite-angle triangle with the arm as hypothenuse, tangent and skating force and see, that skating is a bit less than half of total friction force.
If the modulation angle instantaneously exceeds offset angle, in the wrong direction.
LD
Modulation angle means vertical movement that means high stereo separation. So it is always good to have anti skating facility. One can keep it to zero whenever required.
What will be good anti skating mechanism ? Though soft springs are not liked it has an advantage of becoming nil when tonearm reaches record lable.
What will be good anti skating mechanism ? Though soft springs are not liked it has an advantage of becoming nil when tonearm reaches record lable.
Sorry for bringing the same prehistoric example of the de-automatized Pioneer PL-12 but, as mentioned before, the leverage can be quite sophisticated (to divide the forces and pull it from a spring still frictions happening )
I thought (my bad) that the VTL was just the height of the pickup ( determined by the arm assembly) from the disc.
My think is that
aaahhh skating! But you just keep adding weight to the body, poor cantilever suspension
still frictions happening )I thought (my bad) that the VTL was just the height of the pickup ( determined by the arm assembly) from the disc.
My think is that
aaahhh skating! But you just keep adding weight to the body, poor cantilever suspension
alternative to the DUAL skate o meter
To "measure" you skating force "off-line" you can buy a Wally Tractor or make it yourself:
Iedere platenspeler liefhebber heeft er wel eens van gehoord. Op fora wordt wordt er veel over gediscussieerd. Hoe je een anti skating kracht op een juiste manier kunt instellen laat ik je zien aan de hand van een eenvoudig te maken skating meter. - Audio-Creative
In Dutch but the pictures explain a lot how to use and how to build
I don't have commercial links with either of the companies.
Regards,
Michiel
To "measure" you skating force "off-line" you can buy a Wally Tractor or make it yourself:
Iedere platenspeler liefhebber heeft er wel eens van gehoord. Op fora wordt wordt er veel over gediscussieerd. Hoe je een anti skating kracht op een juiste manier kunt instellen laat ik je zien aan de hand van een eenvoudig te maken skating meter. - Audio-Creative
In Dutch but the pictures explain a lot how to use and how to build
I don't have commercial links with either of the companies.
Regards,
Michiel
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