Kofi Annan in: "Turntable Troubles"

[Kofi Annan]

e) get a new tonearm -- Grace 707/704/714, Mayware Formula 4, Linn Basik(?) would be nice, a rega RB250 might be overkill... the Thorens was not great.

OK, I'm becoming convinced... I looked on Ebay and so far, no such tonearms available. Other than Ebay, any other sources for these?

f) build a 50 Hz motor controller...

To paraphrase Audio-Kraut, "my technical abilities [are] rather limited". Can I get a push in the right direction here? Can I find out about it at 50Hzmotorcontrollers.com?

definitely option a)!
Reasons:
a1) It will improve your skills and knowledge of TT technique

Oh, so I'm supposed to do it myself, am I? Like its some kind of hobby? Well... uh... you have a point here.

a3) Do not let anybody say the Secretary General gives up so quickly on some tough tasks

Right! One thing I won't have anyone saying is that tha K Dogg gave up! I won't give up on Mideast peace, I won't give up on House Resolution 1441 (OK, bad example) and I won't give up on the Thorens TD-160! YYYYAAAGGHHH!!!

That's it! I'm getting a tonearm! I'm building a 50Hz motor controller! And most importantly...

I NEED MORE HELP!!! YYEAAAHHH!!!!

Kofi

[Kofi Annan]

Hey-- I just got done looking for tonearms on Audiogon.com (seems like they have lots for sale) and I just had to look at the zillion dollar tonearms they have for sale.

Let me say first that while I would never buy a three-thousand dollar tonearm, nor would I begrudge anyone that has one, doesn't the price / enjoyment ratio graph get a little flat at three grand?

That is, is there and can there be a mind-numbing, jumping-for-joy, karate-kicking-in-the-air difference between a $300 arm and a $3,000 arm?

Just asking. Also, if anyone could lend some guidance on a design for a 50Hz motor controller (if such a thing can be made with limited funds and mental faculties), please let me know.

Also, Rega 250 for $175-- good deal or no?

Kofi

[audio-kraut]

Also, Rega 250 for $175

Reasonable - could use a little upgrading - check with origin live

[serengetiplains]

Originally posted by Kofi Annan

That is, is there and can there be a mind-numbing, jumping-for-joy, karate-kicking-in-the-air difference between a $300 arm and a $3,000 arm?

Ah, the seemingly ever present myth of declining marginal utility. The whole of history, it seems to me, is a history of declining marginal utility, nothing essentially new under the sun, it's all mostly been done before and, in my dad's estimation, why not drink chokecherry wine?

Is the marginal importance of a difference larger or smaller (a) before one is alive to that difference and (b) after?

[planet10]

Originally posted by Kofi Annan
Rega 250 for $175-- good deal or no?

Not a barn-burner deal... but fair (i got $230 USD for a new 300 -- but that was when the USD was worth a lot more than it is now -- USD has lost about 30% since then). The RB250 is considered by some to be a better starting place than the RB300 (me included). It is a really good arm... possibly better than the Thorens deserves -- but it can always come off and go into the next TT.

Also, if anyone could lend some guidance on a design for a 50Hz motor controller (if such a thing can be made with limited funds and mental faculties), please let me know.

Basically you are building a device that takes 60 Hz AC in and generates 50 Hz AC for the motor. I have seen it touched on in a couple threads, but haven't seen anything that would let me go ahead and build one (i have a Linn bearing, inner platter, & 50 Hz motor that deserves to be used in a project someday)

dave

[planet10]

Originally posted by Kofi Annan
is there and can there be a mind-numbing, jumping-for-joy, karate-kicking-in-the-air difference between a $300 arm and a $3,000 arm?

yes.

But keep in mind that the TT itself is more critical than the arm (ie i'd put a $300 arm on a $3000 TT, but not the other way round)

dave

[audio-kraut]

present myth of declining marginal utility

when it comes to utility - there is none in a tone arm except for some audio nuts.

It is not the utility what has been asked - it is the audible difference, and there I douby that a 3000$arm is 10 times better than a 300 $ arm. A combination of an RB 250 or 350 with a good shure system - V15VxMR at 500$ is maybe not the perfect system, but will allow me a musical enjoyment that a 5000 $ combo definetely will not - price is a consideration with me.

A tonearm only performs well with the right system - physical parameters see to that, and it is very much tougher to find a system for a very lightweight tonearm than for one like the "middle weight" rega.

[Kofi Annan]

I have reviewed the possibility of chnaging the 60Hz to 50Hz and it really looks like a potentially expensive process and a pain in the *** to boot. I am also afraid of sanding / filing down the spindle for obvious reasons.

That said, wouldn't a homebrew DC turntable motor / PSU with analog speed adjustment do the trick? Anyone got any links to a design for these?

Looked on DIYAudio forums, but I have come up empty, so far.

Thanks for all the great advice. If your respective countries ever become unstable, I'll make sure you're at the top of my list for Loya Jirgas.

Kofi

[Apogee]

Kofi,

Clearly, I would choose "A" simply because you don't want Mrs. Annan ticked off because you now have two turntables (especially one that is collecting dust!). Also, you've "made your bed and are now laying in it" so to speak and you have to redeem yourself somehow... (just buying a new one doesn't qualify IMHO...)

The above having been said, here's more info than you might want but I did this so you and others would have reference links to lots of information on these tables...

I've read that the Thorens is very similar to the Linn LP12 as well as the AR tables. If you can find someone who would be willing to measure the inside platter diameter, perhaps you'd get lucky and just be able to order a pulley from Linn or AR... Or, you could just have one machined out of brass if someone will give you the measurements of the original.

Your other option would be to go with a DC motor system like Teres uses that would take the table to a completely different level...

One other option that I haven't seen mentioned would be to grab a PS Audio P300 powerplant with multiwave. You can step the freq up and down and you could very the speed that way. The other similar option of this type would be a VPI SDS unit or the Origin Live unit...

Based on what I've read, this table looks to be a very good starting point for some serious tweeking...

A couple of other thoughts that I will mention:

Regarding the skipping near the center of the record. Was your tracking force set correctly? Was the table level? Lastly, what is the condition of your stylus? If any of these were off, the table would react as you described near the center of the record...

Also, if memory serves, there was a group buy some time ago on the Maxim motors. I Searched and the thread is listed below; perhaps you might consider sending an email or starting a new thread to find out if anyone has an extra that they'd be willing to sell you...

Here are some related threads that I thought you'd find interesting:

AC PSU for synchronous motor:
AC PSU for synchronous motor

Improving a turntable (motor controller circuit)
Improving a turntable (motor controller circuit) ;)

Clean AC power for Project 9 TT:
Clean AC power for Project 9 TT

turntable motors...:
turntable motors...

Motor for turntable.:
Motor for turntable.

Anyone built a VPI-SDS clone?:
Anyone built a VPI-SDS clone?

Group purchase of EPCOS B25839 MKV caps and TT maxon motors:
Group purchase of EPCOS B25839 MKV caps and TT maxon motors

Power supply for Thorens 160: (see if he'll email you the schematic)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...6702#post76702

Linn TT motor:
Linn TT motor

Linn LP12 motor malaise ?:
Linn LP12 motor malaise ?

Turntable motor spindle is slightly bent...:
Turntable motor spindle is slightly bent...


Here are the Thorens links mentioned above...

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_160.html

http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_td_160_dept_.htm

http://www.trian.peachhost.com/Home.htm (replacement parts)

http://www.theanalogdept.com/rktd160ii.htm

http://www.theanalogdept.com/pulley_removal.htm

http://www.teresaudio.com/ (motor and power supply source)

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/olde...renstd150.html

http://www.nakedresource.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=17

http://www.elexatelier.com/thorens.htm

Origin Live - Motor, Power supply and Tonearm solutions...
http://www.originlive.com
(although the orginal arm looks to be a low mass tonearm, something that the Rega is not...)

Contact this guy to see if he has a spindle (plus I'd order the kit)
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...736312031&rd=1

This might be a pretty good combo...
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...737106180&rd=1

Manual:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...737378018&rd=1

VTA Adjustment for the Rega:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...737242768&rd=1

What would they cost to ship from France???
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...737629816&rd=1

Motor pulley available:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...736882339&rd=1

Very Cool Combo!!!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...736196997&rd=1

Grace 707...
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...859370396&rd=1

Enjoy and Happy holidays!

[Kofi Annan]

Apogee,

Thanks so much for all the links. I have learned quite a bit over the last few weeks.

The only remaining question I have is: Are you ready for the punch line?

I decided I would take another look at the motor this afternoon to determine if it really was the spindle. When I did, I noticed that the spindle had a dark mark on 1/2 of its circumference, but not on the other half.

Hmmm....

Being an Encyclopedia Brown fan, I decided to investigate further by removing the spindle using the directions on The Analog Dept. website. On the TD-160, there's a brass collar holding the spindle onto the pulley (right terminology?). According to the website "Brass locking collar has two set screws".

When I loosened the first screw, the entire assembly came apart immediately.

Hmmm....

So, the other screw was never tightened. It must have contributed to a crooked mounting, causing a greater distance between the pulley fulcrum and the platter, I thought. Well, actually, first I thought, "now you broke it FOR GOOD, DUMBASS!", then I thought the other thing.

I reassembled the spindle / pulley, only this time making sure to tighten both screws. When I started it up: WALLA WALLA, WASHINGTON! Its holding speed at 33 1/3!

Little Stevie Wonder sounds little... but not too little! And wow, what an improvement over my old Music Hall MMF 2.1!

I really want to thank everyone who helped me through this one. I know I can be a real pain, and a dumbass, and a stooge, and a lazy bum, and it really helps me to maintain those qualities when I have support like this from all of you.

I looked at the Grace tonearm link you sent, thanks. I'll be looking into that one, but I will likely purchase a used RB-250, since they seem to be in great supply and can be tweaked, upgraded, etc.

Thanks to all! Mittens and scarves to all who want them! Get knittin' Mrs. A!

Kofi