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Old 14th July 2002, 03:02 AM   #1
PedroPO is offline PedroPO  Portugal
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Default Let's make a DIYAUDIO TT

Hi guys!

After a few talks on other threads I thought to make one exclusively dedicated (yeah, right!) to build a turntable.

Send all your ideas, and pics of allready made stuff, or projects.

If anyone needs help in drawing I can help with CAD (I hope so!)

My DIY turtuble will be based on my two turntables:

- Audio Note TT1
- El cheapo Thorens TD190

I guess I'll use the motor, arm and plint from AN and make a "open chassis" like JA michell Gyro SE. What U think?
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Old 14th July 2002, 09:54 AM   #2
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Hi Pedro,

I'd be interested in being involved in a DIY TT project if it were on the level of the Teres / Redpoint TTs or better. I already have a much modified Gyro and would like to build something if possible to substantially improve on it.

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Old 14th July 2002, 10:46 PM   #3
PedroPO is offline PedroPO  Portugal
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fine with me.
I just don't know were to start.

so I thought to use my actual TT as a start, but teres is awesome!
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Old 15th July 2002, 12:03 AM   #4
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Post TT: Technical specification

All,

let's start with a technical specification to gather some understanding what a turntable is expected to do in detail as well as in entirety.

Let's form an opinion on what we want and let us derive later how we want to achieve it. Let's not hamper our imagination by having a particular design in mind form the start. OK?

BTW, Teres is awesome, agreed. But if we arrive at a design very similar to the Teres one later by accident, we know why it is built that way.

So, what is your opinion, what is a TT meant to do and what is it meant to avoid?
Suggestions?
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Old 15th July 2002, 12:36 AM   #5
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Default tt spec

Good idea to start with specification.

1) platter bearing should minimize (ideally eliminate) mechanical noise/vibration

2) platter material should minimize interaction with vinyl record

3) constant speed rotation (no cogging effect)

4) isolation from external vibrations

5) tonearm should accept wide range of cartrigdes

6) tomearm should minimize (or eliminate) tracking errors

7) most importantly, complexity should be mimized,to make project feasible.


these are what I consider 'generic' requirements, each one of which can be expanded, and added to.

Myself, I have been toying with this idea for several years. I am quite interested in participating in this project!
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Old 15th July 2002, 01:41 AM   #6
Lenin is offline Lenin  United Kingdom
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Default Some initial thoughts

Yeah, yeah - lets go for it comrades.

I agree that we should't get too hung up on particular models of turntables we are trying to emulate, but references to particular types will be inevitable from time to time.

A couple of points, based on my own experinces and understanding of turntable design.

1. Inverted bearing, in line with the interface point of bottom of plying groove. The arguments in favovour of this approach are pretty straightforward - essentially that deviation from this ideal introduces progessively more deflection and error at the platter/cartridge interface as the bearing point is moved further away from the 'ideal' point. (I know of just one UK turntable manufacturer who have slavishly followed this approach)

2. DC motor. Quiter, better speed stability, better recovery from speed disturbances with no overshoot (with a properly designed supply)

3. Open design.
Mmmmmmm... I've owned a VPI, Gyrodeck and Pink Triangle Anniversary. This last turntable I had a reluctant listen too at a friends insistance. My jaw hit the floor. I took the thing home , where it preceded to wipe the floor with my Gyrodeck. To my amazement, not only was it an apparently 'closed' plinth, but was, in fact, filled internally with a wierd material - wood? MDF? some weird composite? I don't know. Anyhow, the point I'm trying to illustrate is that an open design is generally better at ensuring that resonances arn't reflected around a plinth, this isn't always the case. The trick would appear to be to design a quiet system in the first place.

4. Arm design
Let's maximise our chances of actually finishing this project by agreeing to shelve the arm element of this project and standardising on a Rega armboard. An arm design could form a dedicated project, in fact I seem to remember a thread on just this subject some time ago.
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Old 15th July 2002, 05:01 AM   #7
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Gilid,

some comments.
1) agreed.

2) not sure about that. platter could act as vibration sink, isn't it? it could "suck" the 3dimensional vibrations happening in the record at the very proximity of the momentary stylus position away from that position. Atleast to a high percentage. Platter can do this job best if it is impedance-matched mechanically: same or similar material for the record and the platter.

3) agreed.

4) agreed

5) and 6)
tonearm, be is gymbal or unipivot or linear tracker, is a supercomplex topic itself and should be a separate project
Can we settle on a universal tonearm basis?

7) totally agreed. KISS rules !!

Lenin,
the Pink Triangle is a fun machine. Certainly a question of taste. Not necessarily achieving an honest reproduction of music. And i would loathe to have the subchassis to be re-adjusted for any record with a slightly differning weight.

You ask for a DC motor, gilid asks for no cogging. no Q, agreed, but that narrows choice on (ironless) voice coil motors with 11 or 13 separate overlapping windings. Maxon and Faulhaber manufacture such motors.

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "Inverted bearing, in line with the interface point of bottom of plying groove." and why is this so advantageous? I can see why one should want his bearing point above the platter's center of inertia, but why in the record plane? (i hope i understood it right)

Inverted bearing: is not a bad idea at all, but it is not as vital as most people believe, it is possible to use an ordinary bearing and still get 1st class results. My own DIY TT built 17 years ago has a non-inverted bearing, it sounds terrific. Recently it got high praise from a buddy knowing them all and stating he would esteem my TT better than a Platine Verdier. Also the Teres has a non-inverted bearing albeit the whole bearing unit is located inside the platter completely.
Something to be mused about ....
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Old 15th July 2002, 07:41 AM   #8
BrianL is offline BrianL  United States
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You know, you guys are about to reinvent the Teres.
So what's the point? It exists, it's beautifully machined,
it's proven. It is now a bit more costly than the first
batch, but significantly cheaper than the brand names.

Maybe a better project would be a killer tonearm kit
to go on the Teres.
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Old 15th July 2002, 12:23 PM   #9
PedroPO is offline PedroPO  Portugal
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I guess a thing like the teres is the path, but if a closed plinth is the most wanted, we should go for it.

I also think that we should be democrats on this. If the majority want's to do something, the oppositions should accept .

I think we can do better than teres, at least try

We could also make a full specification of the finished project with drawings and 3d models for future diyers have a base for further development.

What do you think?
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Old 15th July 2002, 12:28 PM   #10
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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BrianL,

AFAIC, i do not need a TT. I have one (and it just is getting a new motor and a new plinth i just need the space). I just have fun to help others with what i started 17 ys ago, to offer insights and ideas how it could be done, maybe a different successful way.

While i have the Xsectional drawings of the Teres platter in my files, i have the Verdier drawings. I have th SCheu drawings. I have my own platter and bearing drawings. I am not going to volunteer any of them at the moment. I want the others participating in this thread to develop their own concepts from own thinking. I plea for original thinking! And i am dead sure i am not the only one here able to come up with original ideas.

I do not think the Teres is the TT to end all TTs. I do not think it is cheap. From European point of view, it is expensive, Europeans better order a Scheu Kit. Which is not cheap either but, design, manufacturing quality and tolerances considered, certainly worth the money. As is the Teres.
There are ideas out there with patents on them and forbidden to any other commercial venture but available to the DIY community. I just have the platter bearing of the WellTemperedTurntable in mind.

Why inhibit creativity, let the folks try their own thing! No naysaying, please!!
I for instance have some ideas how a DIY TT could be made on low money but WITHOUT compromising quality or sonics.
See, a DIY TT can look weird and be completely unsellable, it can be made from surplus parts if you know which to choose. Needless to say that any sane audio manufacturer stays far apart from surplus components.
A DIY TT can be cheaper and better than existing high gloss retail devices. It can follow design necessities to a commercially insane extent. And it can be smarter designed than preceding, exitisting devices. And again, i am dead sure i am not the only one here able to come up with original ideas.
No naysaying, please!!

Tonearm:
Let's gather feeling and understanding by designing a TT together. Let's leave a tonearm project for later and with the considerations and insights gathered here in mind.

Do you know the story behind redpoint audio design? The founders, Thom and Peter, wanted to toy around with the design a bit more, to try different platter materials, to try different plinth etc. but Chris Brady, who had taken control over Teres, wanted to make business and inhibited further gain of knowledge, no PVC platters were made. Chris had thought to stop nuisant disturbers, but he did not. Thom and Peter decided to take a swing on it and founded redpoint. And i have heard fairly reliable rumours the redpoint sounds comfortably better than a Teres.
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