I have found by accident and interesting TT product. Maybe this prodcut also can be used in a phase locked loop?
http://www.wnaudio.com/turntablepsu.html
http://www.wnaudio.com/turntablepsu.html
Attachments
Of course.
The Rega P3 sounds undynamic to me.
And Rega TTs (and many others) use a slightly faster speed than the 33 1/3 to account for the belt getting older.
And that also gives a false sense of detail.
This is shocking to me.
Is there any precision here?
If DD wasn't better, then why would all decent tape decks (including Nakamichi) used them?
They massively reduced wow&flutter using quartz-locked direct-drive motors.
Isn't speed stability important?
People are paying 1k+ Euros for a PSU for their TT to get speed stability anywhere near a good DD TT. 
Raka, until the mid-80's some very serious DD TTs were made (yes, much better than mine ), even by today's standards.
But audiophiles like to pay thousands for a crappy belt and an ultra-expensive PSU, motor...
BTW, belts don't last long, you know?
They loose their properties fast.
Precision with a belt?
I said purists will kill me.
But can anyone prove me wrong?
Just put a good DD motor on Linn LP12 and give it a go.
The Rega P3 sounds undynamic to me.
And Rega TTs (and many others) use a slightly faster speed than the 33 1/3 to account for the belt getting older.
And that also gives a false sense of detail.
This is shocking to me.
Is there any precision here?
If DD wasn't better, then why would all decent tape decks (including Nakamichi) used them?
They massively reduced wow&flutter using quartz-locked direct-drive motors.
Isn't speed stability important?
People are paying 1k+ Euros for a PSU for their TT to get speed stability anywhere near a good DD TT.
Raka, until the mid-80's some very serious DD TTs were made (yes, much better than mine
), even by today's standards.But audiophiles like to pay thousands for a crappy belt and an ultra-expensive PSU, motor...
BTW, belts don't last long, you know?
They loose their properties fast.
Precision with a belt?
I said purists will kill me.
But can anyone prove me wrong?
Just put a good DD motor on Linn LP12 and give it a go.
Carlos
You may wish to slightly broaden your listening horizons before proclaiming winners. The spec sheet you posted is exactly as meaningless as that of any Pioneer amp from 1974. Which is not to say there is anything inherently wrong with DD. It's just much more difficult to achieve outstanding sound using it.
Some of the most atrocious sounds in my home have come courtesy of the DD crowd darling - the Trio L07. A Dual 701 otoh offers amazingly good sound for the money.
Regarding the PS electronics it's obvious that a DD system is a lot more complex and finicky. It's only market forces which create the >1000 euros synchronous power supplies.
Using a Rega as a belt drive reference? Please give us a break.
Have you ever heard a good idler wheeler?
You may wish to slightly broaden your listening horizons before proclaiming winners. The spec sheet you posted is exactly as meaningless as that of any Pioneer amp from 1974. Which is not to say there is anything inherently wrong with DD. It's just much more difficult to achieve outstanding sound using it.
Some of the most atrocious sounds in my home have come courtesy of the DD crowd darling - the Trio L07. A Dual 701 otoh offers amazingly good sound for the money.
Regarding the PS electronics it's obvious that a DD system is a lot more complex and finicky. It's only market forces which create the >1000 euros synchronous power supplies.
Using a Rega as a belt drive reference? Please give us a break.
Have you ever heard a good idler wheeler?
Carlos, I'm not saying you are not right, I simply asked.
Yes, speed stability is important, but those wow and flutter are like THD values, I think they don't tell the whole story, and more if they are defined only with figures, without test description.
Wow and flutter are much less important than the effect of the excentrycity of the vinyl disc and the ellipticity, the warps, and the tonearm resonance, and a lot of other factors. It's important, of course, but overrated IMO
BTW, fitting a DD in an LP12 is no way a good idea. Maybe a DC one is, but not a direct drive.
Belts are not precision instruments, but I don't think they are the weakest link of the chain.
My PSU is not ultra expensive, by the way.
One question: How are the noise levels of the motors used in direct drive? Why are they less noisier than a standard configuration?
Yes, speed stability is important, but those wow and flutter are like THD values, I think they don't tell the whole story, and more if they are defined only with figures, without test description.
Wow and flutter are much less important than the effect of the excentrycity of the vinyl disc and the ellipticity, the warps, and the tonearm resonance, and a lot of other factors. It's important, of course, but overrated IMO
BTW, fitting a DD in an LP12 is no way a good idea. Maybe a DC one is, but not a direct drive.
Belts are not precision instruments, but I don't think they are the weakest link of the chain.
My PSU is not ultra expensive, by the way.
One question: How are the noise levels of the motors used in direct drive? Why are they less noisier than a standard configuration?
analog_sa said:
I only gave an example, because my TT is not (I know) of the Trio league or even LP12 league.
Anyway, I used this example because when I say this same words (my Technics beats a Rega P3) some hardcore audiophiles I know laugh at me.
Go figure.
They are so snobish that they don't even whant to listen.
Japanese is crap is still a misconception.
carlosfm said:
Anyway, I used this example because when I say this same words (my Technics beats a Rega P3) some hardcore audiophiles I know laugh at me.
Ha. I tend to call those right-wing audiotypes. Dogmatists who live
by their bibles: the entire output of the eighties UK audio press, and
present-day Stereophool. They read how they have to perceive sound.
Plenty of tasty Japanese stuff. Too bad the big ones (and tiny big ones like Micro Seiki) have withdrawn from the turntable scene when CD arrived. Otherwise the whole amateurish Linn/Rega/followers
thing might never have happened.
analog_sa said:
You ask me that because you don't know me, I understand.
I was born in the vinyl era, grew up listening to lots of vinyl and was never convinced about the "new and perfect CD sond".
The first time I heard CD was in 1983 and the public's claps of a classical live concert seamed like rain.
Very strange experience indeed.
I only bought my first CDP in 1990.
My father was a technitian, he repaired turntables too.
I always had TV sets and hi-fi all over my house.
My father had Duals and a PE turntable (never seen this brand again), which I think was a german brand, and had an idler weel, Garrard-style.
Very good at the time.
Ola' Carlos.
I'm happy to see you're enjoying your TT so much, but a couple of things you should note.
First, in audio, as in many engineering fields, sometimes there's more than one way to achieve an end. If money is no object both DD and BD can be made very good. For example, the Rockport Sirius III is DD. OTOH, VPI's top models continue to be BD, and they claim wow&flutter bellow measurability.
When price *is* an object, designers have to make compromises, and maybe there is where BD gets the lead. The crappy belt, is in fact a very good and cheap way to decouple the platter from the motor making the platter itself very quiet. Also, DB synchronous systems don't rely on constant speed adjustments to keep speed stable and if they're allowed to have the same "amount" of electronics your TT has, their speed can be very stable and acurate too.
If you're talking about wow&flutter, yes I can. And it didn't cost me "thousands".
J.Guilherme
I'm happy to see you're enjoying your TT so much, but a couple of things you should note.
First, in audio, as in many engineering fields, sometimes there's more than one way to achieve an end. If money is no object both DD and BD can be made very good. For example, the Rockport Sirius III is DD. OTOH, VPI's top models continue to be BD, and they claim wow&flutter bellow measurability.
When price *is* an object, designers have to make compromises, and maybe there is where BD gets the lead. The crappy belt, is in fact a very good and cheap way to decouple the platter from the motor making the platter itself very quiet. Also, DB synchronous systems don't rely on constant speed adjustments to keep speed stable and if they're allowed to have the same "amount" of electronics your TT has, their speed can be very stable and acurate too.
If you're talking about wow&flutter, yes I can. And it didn't cost me "thousands".
J.Guilherme
I have an old JVC LJ45 (?) which is DD and the mass of the platter is concentrated at the outer end. The wow can be seen at the strobo patterns, circa 0.5 Hz, small puffs... but this can't be heard!
Garanteed wow is below 0.1-0.05% don't remember exactly. I have from time time though about to calculate how much wow you can see. The patterns moves max 5 mm, clearly visible. 5 mm in 2 sec, how much is that?
Garanteed wow is below 0.1-0.05% don't remember exactly. I have from time time though about to calculate how much wow you can see. The patterns moves max 5 mm, clearly visible. 5 mm in 2 sec, how much is that?
GUILHERME said:
Of course.
That's why I mentioned the LP12, although I really think that this thing is seriously overpriced these days.
When money was no object for vinyl owners (back in 1979) Sony
made a cost-no-object, seminal Direct-Drive TT.I don't remember it's model.
You alone couldn't lift it, you would need help.
The DD motor had a torke like a washing mashine.
They made very few units.
Sometime ago Hi-Fi World made an article on this TT.
Now getting back to the real world, Technics' first generation DD TTs were much simpler (not nearly as many electronics as later models), were completely manual and came without an arm fitted.
These were the good ones.
Raka, my Technics has a Direct-Drive brushless DC motor.
Yes, But why did you say a DD has less motor noise than a non DD one? As far as I know, the DD stands for direct drive, that is the motor shaft rotates together with the spindle in the same axis. I suppose the DD has nothing to do with the motor noise itself, am I right? So the DD is the way the motor is connected to the shaft, not hte motor itself, right?
Obviously the motor has to be sized according to the load it will see (electrically and mechanically).
I still can't see why a DD system has to have less motor noise than a DC motor in a BD system.
Obviously the motor has to be sized according to the load it will see (electrically and mechanically).
I still can't see why a DD system has to have less motor noise than a DC motor in a BD system.
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