This is the shipping cost for Europe. The attached table shows the rates. Basically, within Germany 6 euros, Europe 9 euros, worldwide 16 euros.
(the first price is for online booking, the second when you go to a DHL office)
Add to this the price for packing (don't know how much) , it looks like one bulk shipment to Europe and then individual shipments to everybody in EU might be the way to go for us, similar to Asia.....
(the first price is for online booking, the second when you go to a DHL office)
Add to this the price for packing (don't know how much) , it looks like one bulk shipment to Europe and then individual shipments to everybody in EU might be the way to go for us, similar to Asia.....
Attachments
For those wanting to measure Wow + Flutter for the combination of TT+Cart+Arm using the 3150Hz test tone on the future test LP, this simulation program made with LTSpice may be the answer.
You need to record at least 6 sec while the 3150Hz is playing, save it in a file and call it 3150.wav.
This file has to be placed in the same directory as the Wow+Flutter.asc file.
You will also have to put the files filter.sub, filter.asy, iec.asc, iec.asy and iec.meas in said directory all in the .zip file below.
The simulation runs for as long as 5.5 sec, first starting to display the results after 0.1 sec, to give the used filters some time to stabilise.
According to DIN IEC 386, measurement should be taken over at least 5 sec, that’s why is chosen for 5.4 sec or 3 LP revolutions.
After the simulation has been ended, activate the drawing section by clicking on it. Then choose “File” in the menubar, “Execute .MEAS Script” and double click on IEC.
The calculated 2 Sigma value according to DIN IEC386 will appear on your screen as the last line of three in the measure file.
In this example it calculated a figure of 0.034%.
This figure varies a bit depending on the LP and the location of the track on the LP. Using a track with 3150Hz near to the end, I got a wow+flutter value of 0.027%, or 20%less !
By further analysing the IEC 386 signal, it becomes apparent that the Cart's resonance, causing FM modulation of the 3150Hz signal, contributes to a significant part to wow+flutter.
So be aware that is not just speed stability of the platter you are measuring but a combination of Platter, Cart and Arm (and LP eccentricity, see below).
In the image,1mV corresponds to 0.1% pitch variation.
The Green line signal called Mod, is a direct measure for pitch variation, also showing that the LP has a calculated off centre hole of ca. 0.19 mm letting the pitch be changing by +/- 0.14% in this case for a trackradius of 13.5 cm.
DIN IEC 386 attenuates this 0.55Hz eccentricity signal by only 15dB, thereby reducing 0.14% to 0.023%, still quite close to this measured 0.034%.
Placing a 0.55Hz notch filter in front of the IEC 386 filter, gives a wow+flutter figure of 0.028% instead of 0.034% proving my point that 0.1 mm hole eccentricity should probably be the max for an accurate wow+fluttermeasurement.
Hans
You need to record at least 6 sec while the 3150Hz is playing, save it in a file and call it 3150.wav.
This file has to be placed in the same directory as the Wow+Flutter.asc file.
You will also have to put the files filter.sub, filter.asy, iec.asc, iec.asy and iec.meas in said directory all in the .zip file below.
The simulation runs for as long as 5.5 sec, first starting to display the results after 0.1 sec, to give the used filters some time to stabilise.
According to DIN IEC 386, measurement should be taken over at least 5 sec, that’s why is chosen for 5.4 sec or 3 LP revolutions.
After the simulation has been ended, activate the drawing section by clicking on it. Then choose “File” in the menubar, “Execute .MEAS Script” and double click on IEC.
The calculated 2 Sigma value according to DIN IEC386 will appear on your screen as the last line of three in the measure file.
In this example it calculated a figure of 0.034%.
This figure varies a bit depending on the LP and the location of the track on the LP. Using a track with 3150Hz near to the end, I got a wow+flutter value of 0.027%, or 20%less !
By further analysing the IEC 386 signal, it becomes apparent that the Cart's resonance, causing FM modulation of the 3150Hz signal, contributes to a significant part to wow+flutter.
So be aware that is not just speed stability of the platter you are measuring but a combination of Platter, Cart and Arm (and LP eccentricity, see below).
In the image,1mV corresponds to 0.1% pitch variation.
The Green line signal called Mod, is a direct measure for pitch variation, also showing that the LP has a calculated off centre hole of ca. 0.19 mm letting the pitch be changing by +/- 0.14% in this case for a trackradius of 13.5 cm.
DIN IEC 386 attenuates this 0.55Hz eccentricity signal by only 15dB, thereby reducing 0.14% to 0.023%, still quite close to this measured 0.034%.
Placing a 0.55Hz notch filter in front of the IEC 386 filter, gives a wow+flutter figure of 0.028% instead of 0.034% proving my point that 0.1 mm hole eccentricity should probably be the max for an accurate wow+fluttermeasurement.
Hans
Attachments
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Having it in the store could a possibility if the organizers are interested... I haven’t even considered it before now.
There’s one thing I would be sure of, if it was in the store it would almost certainly be more expensive than whatever the group buy price will be. So if you are interested, get in line in the GB once it becomes official.
There’s one thing I would be sure of, if it was in the store it would almost certainly be more expensive than whatever the group buy price will be. So if you are interested, get in line in the GB once it becomes official.
I'm sure the order will go in next year sometime. 
I have thought about putting in the diyAudio store, but have not made any inquires in that direction. It seems like a good fit, if we can do it at a decent price. To place the order, 1/2 the cost is paid up front. So that's something we have to organize.
I have thought about putting in the diyAudio store, but have not made any inquires in that direction. It seems like a good fit, if we can do it at a decent price. To place the order, 1/2 the cost is paid up front. So that's something we have to organize.
Hesener and I have looked into getting all the work done in the Czech Republic - and from a price standpoint, it seems to way to go. We might do all the work in Europe, then send portions to the USA and Hong Kong for distribution there.
Could be the easiest, most economical way to go. No idea (yet) about differences in pressing quality.
Could be the easiest, most economical way to go. No idea (yet) about differences in pressing quality.
Hans,
I have been telling audiophiles this for over 35 years. The concept of arm/cart induced FM has largely been unrecognized and generally ignored until being given it’s due here on this thread and the other diyaudio thread Turntable speed stabilty.
Extensive research was done by the BBC on the audibility of pitch and amplitude variations. The findings were published in 1955 by the Institute of Electrical Engineers and in 1957 by Audio Engineering Society. The AES paper was published in JAES Vol.5 #3 “The Subjective Discrimination of Pitch and Amplitude Fluctuations in Recording Systems” authored by A. Stott & P.E. Axon, and is available here:
AES E-Library >> The Subjective Discrimination of Pitch and Amplitude Fluctuations in Recording Systems
It is also available from the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers here:
The subjective discrimination of pitch and amplitude fluctuations in recording systems - IET Journals & Magazine
The Stott/Axon paper is spot-on relevant to this thread and the other diyaudio thread. I have used the paper as a benchmark for my own tonearm designs to help focus on issues that cause FM flutter and which are not related to the turntable drive system, but whose contribution gets lumped into the total wow/flutter spec of the turntable. The paper is $33US to non-members, but IMO well worth it considering the cost is on par with a typical test LP. And, unlike a test LP, I have not yet worn out my copy of the pdf file no matter how many times I have read it!
In summary, the BBC researchers devised methods of pitch modulating (FM) and amplitude modulating (AM) sine wave signals and music program material and conducted blind listening tests with groups that included both technical and non-technical subjects. One of the salient findings germane to these two diyaudio threads is that the subjective threshold for FM of musical program material (specifically piano) showed maximum sensitivity in the region of 4 – 10Hz, which happens to encompass the typical problem area of arm/cart low frequency resonance.
Collectively you and all other ‘stability’ contributors on diyaudio are advancing measurement technology which can identify and sort out those flutter/stability/FM components that are attributable to the turntable drive system and those that are attributable to arm/cart/geometry/damping design. I find the discussion of all this work here on diyaudio very encouraging, as it takes these analyses to the higher levels that are possible with desktop/laptop computer technology which was not available to researchers 63 years ago.
Thank you and all other ‘stability’ contributors for the work you’ve done and for posting it!
Ray K
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I realized yesterday how the radial "virtual" LP display of FM makes the difference between motor/pulley and arm/cart sort of jump out at you.
" Measurements of FM Distortion in Phonographs " AES March 1979
There is also " Measurements of FM Distortion in Phonographs " AES March 1979
AES E-Library >> Measurement of FM Distortion in Phonographs
Dave
There is also " Measurements of FM Distortion in Phonographs " AES March 1979
AES E-Library >> Measurement of FM Distortion in Phonographs
Dave
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It will probably be wise to first read the papers that Ray has suggested.
And that's what I will do.
Hans
Our track list seems to have stalled. We had a good list form Lucky, but some of those tracks are not defined as to what the signal would actually be. So far, Lucky has not specified the signals for these tracks.
Here is a suggestion of tests. Note: This is NOT a specific track list, just a list of tests we want on the LP. Actual signals and levels are TBD.
Reference tone
Speed test with marker
FM test
Full sweeps: Mono, Left, Right, reverse phase
Low frequency sweeps (as above)
Rotating vector 1K
Noise (pink and white)
Silence
Groove angle/slew lateral rate
Triangle/ groove shape curvature acceleration
Crosstalk
400Hz:4k vertical and horizontal
Wear test lock grooves
Is this missing any tests?
Here is a suggestion of tests. Note: This is NOT a specific track list, just a list of tests we want on the LP. Actual signals and levels are TBD.
Reference tone
Speed test with marker
FM test
Full sweeps: Mono, Left, Right, reverse phase
Low frequency sweeps (as above)
Rotating vector 1K
Noise (pink and white)
Silence
Groove angle/slew lateral rate
Triangle/ groove shape curvature acceleration
Crosstalk
400Hz:4k vertical and horizontal
Wear test lock grooves
Is this missing any tests?