Hi,
This is my first post to this top forum but Ive been hanging around reading other posts for a couple of months. Nice bank of information you guys have built up.
Anyway, I have read that Linn Sondek LP12's are overpriced and under-engineered? and not worth getting, however I picked my one up today from the side of the road (Hard-rubbish day in my great city where they actually throw out $1000+ turntables) and so I couldn't care less. Im pleased with it already.
Question is, anyone know a good place to get it serviced in Perth, Western Australia? I switched it on and the motor runs smooth, however the belt wont stay on and so I think it just needs a new belt and a service.
Also, any ideas for the first most necesarry mod? cables look a bit tatty or should I jump right in with major stuff?
(In case your wondering, I also picked up some OK speakers and a mint-ish Sony CD player, yamaha amp and a jarrah cofee table, just stuff I've spotted driving to school this week! I saw an old tube TV today but by the time I got back someone had already stripped it for parts.)
Cheers
Dan
This is my first post to this top forum but Ive been hanging around reading other posts for a couple of months. Nice bank of information you guys have built up.
Anyway, I have read that Linn Sondek LP12's are overpriced and under-engineered? and not worth getting, however I picked my one up today from the side of the road (Hard-rubbish day in my great city where they actually throw out $1000+ turntables) and so I couldn't care less. Im pleased with it already.
Question is, anyone know a good place to get it serviced in Perth, Western Australia? I switched it on and the motor runs smooth, however the belt wont stay on and so I think it just needs a new belt and a service.
Also, any ideas for the first most necesarry mod? cables look a bit tatty or should I jump right in with major stuff?
(In case your wondering, I also picked up some OK speakers and a mint-ish Sony CD player, yamaha amp and a jarrah cofee table, just stuff I've spotted driving to school this week! I saw an old tube TV today but by the time I got back someone had already stripped it for parts.)
Cheers
Dan
The belt won't stay on due to some form of misalignment.
You don't say what arm is fitted, or cartridge, or power supply.
Generally the better the turntable and the the more tweaking
the manafacturer has done, the less likely it is that "mods" will
improve matters.
You need to learn how to set it up properly etc. before you mod it.
Try here to start :
http://www.n.mackie.btinternet.co.uk/linn/tlp12faq.html
sreten.
You don't say what arm is fitted, or cartridge, or power supply.
Generally the better the turntable and the the more tweaking
the manafacturer has done, the less likely it is that "mods" will
improve matters.
You need to learn how to set it up properly etc. before you mod it.
Try here to start :
http://www.n.mackie.btinternet.co.uk/linn/tlp12faq.html
sreten.
Agree with sreten.
I swapped my old DJ decks with a friend for his LP12, what a bargain I got! I would say that the electronics in them is an absolute joke. They are very well engineered mechanically, but I don't think they had a clue about the electronics in them when they first came out.
Mine has the Valhalla upgrade to crystal-controlled speed. This is the only upgrade I would bother with, if yours doesn't have it. It's a right pain changing the adaptor for speed changes, but I can't justify the cost of the next upgrade to make it changeable by switch. Why they couldn't include this function when they did the Valhalla upgrade just proves them to be chimps when it comes to electronics IMO.
The belt kept coming off mine. First it's essential that the platter is set up properly with the 3 adjusters underneath. I did this by putting it across 2 flat chairs and laying on the floor under the deck. Once everything is nice and even and level you can turn your attention to the screws by the motor on the top. These adjust the angle and thus where the belt rides the platter.
I have an LP12 owners manual which I have just put on my webspace.
http://www.richie00boy.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/lp12_owners_manual.pdf
I swapped my old DJ decks with a friend for his LP12, what a bargain I got! I would say that the electronics in them is an absolute joke. They are very well engineered mechanically, but I don't think they had a clue about the electronics in them when they first came out.
Mine has the Valhalla upgrade to crystal-controlled speed. This is the only upgrade I would bother with, if yours doesn't have it. It's a right pain changing the adaptor for speed changes, but I can't justify the cost of the next upgrade to make it changeable by switch. Why they couldn't include this function when they did the Valhalla upgrade just proves them to be chimps when it comes to electronics IMO.
The belt kept coming off mine. First it's essential that the platter is set up properly with the 3 adjusters underneath. I did this by putting it across 2 flat chairs and laying on the floor under the deck. Once everything is nice and even and level you can turn your attention to the screws by the motor on the top. These adjust the angle and thus where the belt rides the platter.
I have an LP12 owners manual which I have just put on my webspace.
http://www.richie00boy.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/lp12_owners_manual.pdf
richie00boy said:
Thanks - I can't remember where i left mine in '73, when I bought one of the first LP12's in Denmark (without a wooden plint). The price then was for me about 140 US $, and I'm sure I can make a profit on it selling it now, but I won't!
Mine is the one without electronic servo. Just a motor and a belt - just 33,3 rpm (that's why it' called LP12). I don't have the need for tweaking - it's a good design in the first place.
Generally the better the turntable and the the more tweaking
the manafacturer has done, the less likely it is that "mods" will
improve matters.
-------------------------------------------------------
But Linn actually encourages tweaking by constantly changing bits in the deck.
I have two Linn LP12s, one with all the mods, but I actually prefer my Garrad 301 (modded) , Luxman PD300 and Pioneer PL1000!
Thje Linn is coloured in the mid/lower bass whatever is done.
Not only that but each dealer seem to have his own way of setting up, some quite wrong in that the suspension comes back wonky. You can do a better job yourself. And all this business about polishing the belt-----!
the manafacturer has done, the less likely it is that "mods" will
improve matters.
-------------------------------------------------------
But Linn actually encourages tweaking by constantly changing bits in the deck.
I have two Linn LP12s, one with all the mods, but I actually prefer my Garrad 301 (modded) , Luxman PD300 and Pioneer PL1000!
Thje Linn is coloured in the mid/lower bass whatever is done.
Not only that but each dealer seem to have his own way of setting up, some quite wrong in that the suspension comes back wonky. You can do a better job yourself. And all this business about polishing the belt-----!
fmak said:But Linn actually encourages tweaking by constantly changing bits in the deck.
I have two Linn LP12s, one with all the mods, but I actually prefer my Garrad 301 (modded) , Luxman PD300 and Pioneer PL1000!
The Linn is coloured in the mid/lower bass whatever is done.
Not only that but each dealer seem to have his own way of setting up, some quite wrong in that the suspension comes back wonky. You can do a better job yourself. And all this business about polishing the belt-----!
Agree with every point. But I think mods to a Linn should follow
Linns Mods even if you do them yourself, or a version of them.
Unlike say a Thorens TD160 which is a modfest, as its more
bolted together than designed, with a Linn proceed with caution.
sreten.Lifted from a TT discussion thread I contributed to on the AVSForum Let's see what you guys think about it. It is not fuly worked out as posts go, but I did do it off the top of my head:
Level the turntable body on a set of books, video tapes, whatever, with the bottom plate off and the unit UNPLUGGED FROM THE AC..as there is AC live and open AC wiring under the unit!!!
Each spring has a orientation pattern. There is a 'end' point for each spring, ie., where the 'spring-wire' itself ends. The end of the coil. This should be the top of the spring that is oriented. Place the end of that wire so it points outward from the spindle or bearing point in a radial pattern, exactly the opposite of pointing toward the bearing. This stresses the system so it pulls evenly in all directions.
Then, dress the cables so they do not stress the suspension system.. so they are free floating. Then set the belt height, (by placing the platter on UPSIDE DOWN, with the mat and a record on top of it, so it sits at it's operational ride height!!) and the armboard height, by adjusting the springs..
The armboard should be centered on the sub-chassis, and then the space around the armboard should be even on all sides. THEN, place a 'average weight' record on the platter, put the arm over the record (with the arm raiser holding it off the record). Then proceed to bounce the suspension, and slowly adjust the spring heights slightly, very slightly..and wiggle the springs bout so they don't rub, maybe turning them slightly so the rub is minimized.. in a way so the belt stressing is counteracted. Each suspension point (spring point) should bounce or move fo exactly the same amount of time, no more, no less. It is not in any way considered as being properly adjusted if it is not doing exactly that.
The springs will have to be wiggled a bit, even after the proper point is reached, as they do drift to a new final point before settling in. Just wiggle the top and bottom of the springs a bit in their new positions. It has to do with how the top and bottom of the spring sits with respect to their top and bottom rubber grommets. There will be a slight initial drift when attempting to do the 'spring rate' (bounce) adjustment.
The real trick is the turning of the springs to get them to sit right, stress the belt right , center the armoard.. AND not rub -- so the suspension works without adding noise via the rubbing. It also fails in it's primary purpose if it rubs!! Don't forget that!.... that's where the indistinct bass on a LP 12 comes from. It totally rocks if the suspension is not rubbing.
If this cannot be done, by someone who has vast experience with TT's, then the unit needs new springs and rubber grommets. Stop hurting yourself and buy a spring kit.
A pro can do this in less than 10 minutes, heck.. 5 minutes.....and the turntable will NEVER drift if it is done right.
This is what I had to take 5 years to figure out by myself. The usual case.
__________________
Apparently, I forgot about how worn belts tend to slip right off the pulley. Besides the belt/motor leveling that needs to be done. The motor should lean slightly back. Almost imperceptibly.
Level the turntable body on a set of books, video tapes, whatever, with the bottom plate off and the unit UNPLUGGED FROM THE AC..as there is AC live and open AC wiring under the unit!!!
Each spring has a orientation pattern. There is a 'end' point for each spring, ie., where the 'spring-wire' itself ends. The end of the coil. This should be the top of the spring that is oriented. Place the end of that wire so it points outward from the spindle or bearing point in a radial pattern, exactly the opposite of pointing toward the bearing. This stresses the system so it pulls evenly in all directions.
Then, dress the cables so they do not stress the suspension system.. so they are free floating. Then set the belt height, (by placing the platter on UPSIDE DOWN, with the mat and a record on top of it, so it sits at it's operational ride height!!) and the armboard height, by adjusting the springs..
The armboard should be centered on the sub-chassis, and then the space around the armboard should be even on all sides. THEN, place a 'average weight' record on the platter, put the arm over the record (with the arm raiser holding it off the record). Then proceed to bounce the suspension, and slowly adjust the spring heights slightly, very slightly..and wiggle the springs bout so they don't rub, maybe turning them slightly so the rub is minimized.. in a way so the belt stressing is counteracted. Each suspension point (spring point) should bounce or move fo exactly the same amount of time, no more, no less. It is not in any way considered as being properly adjusted if it is not doing exactly that.
The springs will have to be wiggled a bit, even after the proper point is reached, as they do drift to a new final point before settling in. Just wiggle the top and bottom of the springs a bit in their new positions. It has to do with how the top and bottom of the spring sits with respect to their top and bottom rubber grommets. There will be a slight initial drift when attempting to do the 'spring rate' (bounce) adjustment.
The real trick is the turning of the springs to get them to sit right, stress the belt right , center the armoard.. AND not rub -- so the suspension works without adding noise via the rubbing. It also fails in it's primary purpose if it rubs!! Don't forget that!.... that's where the indistinct bass on a LP 12 comes from. It totally rocks if the suspension is not rubbing.
If this cannot be done, by someone who has vast experience with TT's, then the unit needs new springs and rubber grommets. Stop hurting yourself and buy a spring kit.
A pro can do this in less than 10 minutes, heck.. 5 minutes.....and the turntable will NEVER drift if it is done right.
This is what I had to take 5 years to figure out by myself. The usual case.
__________________
Apparently, I forgot about how worn belts tend to slip right off the pulley. Besides the belt/motor leveling that needs to be done. The motor should lean slightly back. Almost imperceptibly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------KBK said:
This is Black Magic and bad mechanical design. Don't forget to dust the grommets with powder as well!!!
It says a lot for marketeers who can sell on the basis of um machining (nonsense unless you use nanotechnology machining) and supposed inferiority of direct drive.
fmak said:And all this business about polishing the belt-----!
What's this thing about the polishing?
I have a TD160, so I think this way of adjusting the suspension also applies.
I got the thing about the coil end and that the three springs should be in opposite direction so the stress cancel (or at least they should do if the three are identical and are positioned at 120º). And I see that in order to get the final setup, I may have to rotate the entire spring some degrees from the starting point described before, just to reach the identical vertical bouncing
What I don't get is:
Level of the platter and equal vertical bouncing (no lateral bouncing produced if done right).
Are they always compatible??
As I'm not English, I'm not sure what wiggle and rub means, could you please ellaborate on that?
Raka said:
What's this thing about the polishing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some dealers and posters claim that polishing the belt with furniture spray and or/dusting with powder improves sound. I have never done it except to clean belt with small amount of isopropyl alcohol.
Raka said:
Hi Raka,
They should be compatible, but they are not always.
The most common reasons are :
1) an arm that is too heavy for the original suspension design.
2) the springs have different rates and are not in the correct position.
3) Too much weight added to the platter / subchassis.
3 is easily addressed by adding weight at the arm base (usually)
2 is just a question of careful inspection of the springs
1 is the most difficult, the best option is difficult to say :
Repositioning of springs
fit a higher rate spring
Add a helper spring (I've done this twice)
Rub - is from the word rubber - and from its use as eraser
with pencil lines /drawings. It means sliding physical contact.
Wiggle - side to side movement, women wiggle their hips if
so inclined, you'd also wiggle a tube/valve or a plug in its
socket if it wasn't working too well.
sreten.Linn Upgrades
Have a look at Arthur Salvatore's web site and read up everything he
says about the LP12; I'd say he's a bit over the top but there is a
*lot* of truth in what he says.
In particular, I agree with him that the Linn upgrades are somewhat
minor in effect, though not in cost. If you compare a Cirkus/Lingo/
Ekos model with a pre Cirkus/Valhalla/Ittok one, the similarities
will far outweigh the differences (IMHO). I've done most of these
upgrades myself.
Therefore, I rather like Arthur's strategy; buy a lowish spec LP12
at the right price (!), and whatever you do, don't upgrade it! Put
the money away towards a better t/t eventually.
Meanwhile, you can enjoy pretty good music.
I suggest just two upgrades.
The first one is mentioned by Arthur; the Cetech subchassis. This is
not just a 'massaging' of the sound (as I suggest Cirkus and Lingo
are). It is a fundamental re-engineering to fix a major problem with
the LP12; an over resonant subchassis. My opinion is that this one
change makes more improvement than Lingo and Cirkus together.
At a cost of about £100, it's a no brainer.
The second is the Donut or none-felt mat. It gives a major improvement
to how things stop and start, improves detail and a lot more besides.
Effect is (IMHO) more significant than a Lingo, possibly more than
the Cirkus. For £30, or even less DIY, another no brainer.
Depending on funds, other arms might be considered but on a few
conditions.
First, forget the Linn propaganda; you must consider non Linn arms.
Second, ensure the arm is a good match for your next t/t as well as
the LP12.
Third, keep the old arm to put back on the Linn when you sell it.
I do like my Linn; it makes music, it's very enjoyable to listen to.
But I know it's not the last word, and I'm currently eyeing up a
Teres ....
Mike C
Linn LP12/Circus/Pink Linnk PSU/ damped top plate/Cetech subchassis/
Moerch DP-6 arm (mmm, lovely sound and looks)/Lyra Evolve 99.
Have a look at Arthur Salvatore's web site and read up everything he
says about the LP12; I'd say he's a bit over the top but there is a
*lot* of truth in what he says.
In particular, I agree with him that the Linn upgrades are somewhat
minor in effect, though not in cost. If you compare a Cirkus/Lingo/
Ekos model with a pre Cirkus/Valhalla/Ittok one, the similarities
will far outweigh the differences (IMHO). I've done most of these
upgrades myself.
Therefore, I rather like Arthur's strategy; buy a lowish spec LP12
at the right price (!), and whatever you do, don't upgrade it! Put
the money away towards a better t/t eventually.
Meanwhile, you can enjoy pretty good music.
I suggest just two upgrades.
The first one is mentioned by Arthur; the Cetech subchassis. This is
not just a 'massaging' of the sound (as I suggest Cirkus and Lingo
are). It is a fundamental re-engineering to fix a major problem with
the LP12; an over resonant subchassis. My opinion is that this one
change makes more improvement than Lingo and Cirkus together.
At a cost of about £100, it's a no brainer.
The second is the Donut or none-felt mat. It gives a major improvement
to how things stop and start, improves detail and a lot more besides.
Effect is (IMHO) more significant than a Lingo, possibly more than
the Cirkus. For £30, or even less DIY, another no brainer.
Depending on funds, other arms might be considered but on a few
conditions.
First, forget the Linn propaganda; you must consider non Linn arms.
Second, ensure the arm is a good match for your next t/t as well as
the LP12.
Third, keep the old arm to put back on the Linn when you sell it.
I do like my Linn; it makes music, it's very enjoyable to listen to.
But I know it's not the last word, and I'm currently eyeing up a
Teres ....
Mike C
Linn LP12/Circus/Pink Linnk PSU/ damped top plate/Cetech subchassis/
Moerch DP-6 arm (mmm, lovely sound and looks)/Lyra Evolve 99.
Re: Linn Upgrades
Mike C said:Have a look at Arthur Salvatore's web site and read up everything he
says about the LP12; I'd say he's a bit over the top but there is a
*lot* of truth in what he says.
The second is the Donut or none-felt mat. It gives a major improvement
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are probably right. The Trampoline is, in particular, a waste of money. Much better to fit inverted cones.
Can you pl explain what the Donut is?
I respectfully suggest that anyone who thinks a mat other than the Linn one sounds better, would do better to just buy a different turtable, since the LP12 is obviously not for you.
There's no real black magic to LP12 setup, it's common sense if you follow the Linn setup guidelines. Most of the mods I've heard changed the sound and worsened the music. It's not bad design either, it's simply most don't understand how the deck works and therefore it looks that way.
The LP12 is a pretty unique device, it's the one piece of hardware I bought with my hard-earned and having tried many alternatives have stuck with for the last 15 years. No other item I've bought has had that staying power. It gives great insight into music but if you want air, space or other froth look elsewhere - other TT's do that much better.
Some Linn additions are not so good - the Trampolinn being the obvious one - this device is intended for when the deck is placed on large, massive tables - if you use a dedicated support the Tramp is likely to be much worse.
I also disagree about the Linn updates being minor, items such as the Lingo (or alternatives) make a huge musical difference, although they may not change the sound much. The Cirkus also makes a significant difference although there is a band of owners that prefer the pre-cirkus bearing.
The simplest and cheapest improvement one can make is to remove the baseboard (although BEWARE, the Valhalla PSU'd decks have lethal voltages exposed when this is done).
All IMVHO, of course
There's no real black magic to LP12 setup, it's common sense if you follow the Linn setup guidelines. Most of the mods I've heard changed the sound and worsened the music. It's not bad design either, it's simply most don't understand how the deck works and therefore it looks that way.
The LP12 is a pretty unique device, it's the one piece of hardware I bought with my hard-earned and having tried many alternatives have stuck with for the last 15 years. No other item I've bought has had that staying power. It gives great insight into music but if you want air, space or other froth look elsewhere - other TT's do that much better.
Some Linn additions are not so good - the Trampolinn being the obvious one - this device is intended for when the deck is placed on large, massive tables - if you use a dedicated support the Tramp is likely to be much worse.
I also disagree about the Linn updates being minor, items such as the Lingo (or alternatives) make a huge musical difference, although they may not change the sound much. The Cirkus also makes a significant difference although there is a band of owners that prefer the pre-cirkus bearing.
The simplest and cheapest improvement one can make is to remove the baseboard (although BEWARE, the Valhalla PSU'd decks have lethal voltages exposed when this is done).
All IMVHO, of course
Donut Mat
It is a non slip mat by 'Extreme Phono'; mentioned a lot on Vinyl
Asylum.
The material is readily available if you want to DIY (and what else
would one do, on *this* board). But I don't begrudge Casey his few
dollars myself, so if you want to buy one a yahoo search for
extreme phono donut should get you there.
It is a non slip mat by 'Extreme Phono'; mentioned a lot on Vinyl
Asylum.
The material is readily available if you want to DIY (and what else
would one do, on *this* board). But I don't begrudge Casey his few
dollars myself, so if you want to buy one a yahoo search for
extreme phono donut should get you there.
ALW said:
Suggestion noted, and I'm working on it ...
However, I have to ask if you've tried the non slip mat. Assuming that's
not the case, I'd suggest you give it a go. All you need is a roll
of non slip mat from Homebase for a fiver. Nice colours available too
if you fancy that.
Seriously, I like what it does. Better dynamics, timing, and a lot of
things snap into focus; I find the music sounds better and that's what
it's about, I agree.
But to answer your point, I have two friends who are diedhard Linnies.
I lent a Donut to Steve; he went out and bought 'router mat' to make
one. His is a top spec Linn (Cirkus, Lingo, Ekos) with active Naim SBLs.
He still uses the donut. His ringmat is in the cupboard.
Steve took his donut round to Andy a few weeks later; Andy has a
Naimed Linn (ARO, armageddon, prefix), with high quality passive
Naim gear. Andy heard ... and went right out, that morning, to buy
the stuff; he had to have one there and then.
OK, it's all comes down to opinion, and I have no problem at all with
us having different 'evaluations' of things like Lingo and Cirkus;
I very much respect your views on this and I'm half with you.
But with respect, don't you think you should hear the item in question
before expressing the above opinion? Please, no offence intended but
I think it's a valid point.
Like you, my Linn is the longest serving item in my system, and has
given me lots of pleasure; it does make music. I'm close to ordering
a Teres but I can hardly imagine parting with the Linn.
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