I need some help here. My dad is a technofreak, so I've inherited his turntables. One is a Philips 212 hi-fi, which is great looking but definitely no good, and the other is a Pioneer PL-51A. And it's this Pioneer I'd like to use.
Its original cartridge is a Shure V15 Type III. The stylus broke some decades ago. We tried a replacement stylus, the Vn35E made by a swiss company, but the sound was terrible. Eventually we switched to a brazilian cartridge (namely a Leson Axxis, with an Axxis IV-x hyper-elliptical low-mass stylus which I'm sure no one's ever heard of). The sound is decent, but no big deal.
I've read lots about the Shure cartridge, and was led to believe it is useless nowadays, for its rubber would have dried out after three plus decades. If that's the case, I guess it would explain the terrible sound of the replacement stylus.
On the other hand, I can't seem to find informations about the Pioneer TT.
What I really would like to know is:
1) Is my Shure cartridge really useless? I'm no expert, obviously, but it looks in perfect condition to me.
2) Is my Pioneer TT any good? I'm sure it was good when it was bought, but I wonder whether it deserves all the trouble.
3) Finally, if the TT is indeed good, which cartridge/stylus should I look into?
I don't know any arm specifications or things of that sort, but I can find out. And I'm thinking of spending 150-200 USD tops.
If anyone can give me some advice, or directions to further reading on the subject, I'd be grateful. Also, any more information needed that I've left out, just ask. I can also take some pictures of both the TT and the cartridge, if it's any good.
Its original cartridge is a Shure V15 Type III. The stylus broke some decades ago. We tried a replacement stylus, the Vn35E made by a swiss company, but the sound was terrible. Eventually we switched to a brazilian cartridge (namely a Leson Axxis, with an Axxis IV-x hyper-elliptical low-mass stylus which I'm sure no one's ever heard of). The sound is decent, but no big deal.
I've read lots about the Shure cartridge, and was led to believe it is useless nowadays, for its rubber would have dried out after three plus decades. If that's the case, I guess it would explain the terrible sound of the replacement stylus.
On the other hand, I can't seem to find informations about the Pioneer TT.
What I really would like to know is:
1) Is my Shure cartridge really useless? I'm no expert, obviously, but it looks in perfect condition to me.
2) Is my Pioneer TT any good? I'm sure it was good when it was bought, but I wonder whether it deserves all the trouble.
3) Finally, if the TT is indeed good, which cartridge/stylus should I look into?
I don't know any arm specifications or things of that sort, but I can find out. And I'm thinking of spending 150-200 USD tops.
If anyone can give me some advice, or directions to further reading on the subject, I'd be grateful. Also, any more information needed that I've left out, just ask. I can also take some pictures of both the TT and the cartridge, if it's any good.
The Philips 312 / 212 would really need a rebuild and an arm
transplant to really sing IMO. I have rebuilt two in the past,
one I fitted a Connoisseur arm, the other a Formula 4.
Note a standard length arm cannot be fitted, the 4 was shortened.
Manual is availabe here :
http://www.nakedresource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1778
Regarding the Shure cartridge, there is no rubber in the body
to dry out, but it would be a problem with a NOS stylus.
I can't find any info on the Pioneer, but the old standard S
shaped headshell Japanese arms are not worth fitting an
expensive cartridge to, they limit performance far too much.
An Audio Technica AT95E / AT110E is a good choice.
The Grado Black will work, though not ideally
matched to the mass of the Pioneer arm.
sreten.
transplant to really sing IMO. I have rebuilt two in the past,
one I fitted a Connoisseur arm, the other a Formula 4.
Note a standard length arm cannot be fitted, the 4 was shortened.
Manual is availabe here :
http://www.nakedresource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1778
Regarding the Shure cartridge, there is no rubber in the body
to dry out, but it would be a problem with a NOS stylus.
I can't find any info on the Pioneer, but the old standard S
shaped headshell Japanese arms are not worth fitting an
expensive cartridge to, they limit performance far too much.
An Audio Technica AT95E / AT110E is a good choice.
The Grado Black will work, though not ideally
matched to the mass of the Pioneer arm.
sreten.> Regarding the Shure cartridge, there is no rubber in the body
> to dry out, but it would be a problem with a NOS stylus.
Does the Shure VN35MR fit the old V15 Type III?
> I can't find any info on the Pioneer, but the old standard S
> shaped headshell Japanese arms are not worth fitting an
> expensive cartridge to, they limit performance far too much.
The manual has been lost over the years, but the arm certainly is S shaped. But considering I already have the Shure, wouldn't it be better to just replace its stylus, other than buying a new cartridge?
And I might consider changing its arm, I just don't think I have the necessary skills to do it.
> to dry out, but it would be a problem with a NOS stylus.
Does the Shure VN35MR fit the old V15 Type III?
> I can't find any info on the Pioneer, but the old standard S
> shaped headshell Japanese arms are not worth fitting an
> expensive cartridge to, they limit performance far too much.
The manual has been lost over the years, but the arm certainly is S shaped. But considering I already have the Shure, wouldn't it be better to just replace its stylus, other than buying a new cartridge?
And I might consider changing its arm, I just don't think I have the necessary skills to do it.
sorry about all the useless posts. took me a while getting used to the thing. it's unfortunate I can't edit my posts. but, to end the thing, here's a picture of my PL-51A with the Shure cartridge:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Nice to see a pic of it though you link doesn't work.
(get a not authorised page)
The arm looks similar to the one fitted to the Pioneer
PL12D and is a limiting factor in subtlety, so basically
its not worth fitting anything too flash.
An arm transplant is required to use a very good cartridge.
sreten.
(get a not authorised page)
The arm looks similar to the one fitted to the Pioneer
PL12D and is a limiting factor in subtlety, so basically
its not worth fitting anything too flash.
An arm transplant is required to use a very good cartridge.
sreten.sreten said:Nice to see a pic of it though you link doesn't work.
(get a not authorised page)
The arm looks similar to the one fitted to the Pioneer
PL12D and is a limiting factor in subtlety, so basically
its not worth fitting anything too flash.
An arm transplant is required to use a very good cartridge.
apparently the first picture I've attached went through. the link didn't work 'cause you have to be registered and logged in, I believe.
thanks for all the help, but I still have three questions:
1) the thing is, it already HAS a Shure cartridge. should I get rid of it and use something like the Audio-Technica, or is it just a question of being a waste of a good cartridge? I mean, would changing to a "worse" cartridge actually make the sound better?
2) I can't find anywhere whether the Shure VN35MR fits the old V15 Type III or only the MR models.
3) Which low-mass arm should I get for the Pionner, that would be a good fit for the Shure cartridge? (it seems foolish to me to spend money on another cartridge).
I severely doubt the other stylus will fit.
Old NOS (new old stock) V15III styli are likely to be perished.
A new stylus is usually 75% of the cost of the cost of a cartridge,
unless you are being artificially being charged for the cartridge body.
The AT cartridges should be much less than a new shure stylus.
Not getting a specific stylus gives you far more choice.
A new arm ? who can say ? If your trying to pick one up on the cheap.
There are good ones and not so good ones. Its a question of
what you can pick up second-hand at a reasonable price.
For Brazil its more difficult, as I don't know what arms were
imported there and in what quantities. But fixed headshell
is a good starting point.
sreten.
Old NOS (new old stock) V15III styli are likely to be perished.
A new stylus is usually 75% of the cost of the cost of a cartridge,
unless you are being artificially being charged for the cartridge body.
The AT cartridges should be much less than a new shure stylus.
Not getting a specific stylus gives you far more choice.
A new arm ? who can say ? If your trying to pick one up on the cheap.
There are good ones and not so good ones. Its a question of
what you can pick up second-hand at a reasonable price.
For Brazil its more difficult, as I don't know what arms were
imported there and in what quantities. But fixed headshell
is a good starting point.
sreten.sreten said:
Ok, I guess I'll see if I can get a hold of one these cartridges. But it still breaks my heart to see an allegedly good cartridge go to waste, heh.
A new arm ? who can say ? If your trying to pick one up on the cheap.
There are good ones and not so good ones. Its a question of
what you can pick up second-hand at a reasonable price.
For Brazil its more difficult, as I don't know what arms were
imported there and in what quantities. But fixed headshell
is a good starting point.
I didn't consider the brazilian market for a second
I have a friend who lives in Montreal and comes to Brazil for the holidays every year. I was thinking of either asking him to try and find something, or buy it over the internet from some trustworthy retailer.Thanks for all the help, BTW.
sreten said:
Messing around the Shure site, I found this chart:
http://www.shure.com/xrefphono.html
if I can understand it correctly, the VN35MR stylus will fit any V15 Type III cartridge. Which would mean some U$90,00 for it, and leave me with the job of finding a good arm for it.
Dont bother with this stylus change, go for the AT 95 or a cheap Grado, both are far better cartridges than the Shure ever was, and the Shure absolutely isn´t suited for that arm plus not suited for a directdrive tt as it is far more sensitive to the magnetic strayfields around the motor. If You want to put a better arm on that player there´s some extensive rework to do, the Philips is far more suited for an armchange
Buy the AT95 /110 and enjoy the music instead!
Buy the AT95 /110 and enjoy the music instead!
Well personally to me its always good to fit a tone-arm to
an older turntable that that could have been fitted when it
was new, especially if you can find one cheap.
So we are dealing with North America, again a slight problem
as I don't know what was popular at the time over the pond.
A lowish mass arm would be as nice touch, fixed headshell.
Audio Technica made some decent ones, think you could
swap armtubes on these.
There's the Mayware Formula 4 and Hadcock unipivots,
there was also a popular Japanese unipivot but I can't
remember the maker or model, around £80 here at the
time. (It may come to me in the next few days....)
Theres the classic Mission arm, though I don't think you
could get this cheap, the same for the SME low mass arm.
Checkout the tone-arm manuals here :
http://www.nakedresource.com/phpBB2/index.php
This is very good value, as the tip will last at least
twice as long as an elliptical stylus and suits lowish
mass arms well :
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT106601/sc.2/category.363/it.A/id.219/.f
If your going for a transplant post some pics of the
pioneer internals for some suggestions of mods.
sreten.
an older turntable that that could have been fitted when it
was new, especially if you can find one cheap.
So we are dealing with North America, again a slight problem
as I don't know what was popular at the time over the pond.
A lowish mass arm would be as nice touch, fixed headshell.
Audio Technica made some decent ones, think you could
swap armtubes on these.
There's the Mayware Formula 4 and Hadcock unipivots,
there was also a popular Japanese unipivot but I can't
remember the maker or model, around £80 here at the
time. (It may come to me in the next few days....)
Theres the classic Mission arm, though I don't think you
could get this cheap, the same for the SME low mass arm.
Checkout the tone-arm manuals here :
http://www.nakedresource.com/phpBB2/index.php
This is very good value, as the tip will last at least
twice as long as an elliptical stylus and suits lowish
mass arms well :
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT106601/sc.2/category.363/it.A/id.219/.f
If your going for a transplant post some pics of the
pioneer internals for some suggestions of mods.
sreten.ingvar ahlberg said:
Well the Philips basically needs a total rebuild and arm
changing is very difficult (unless you have a lathe), you
also need an arm that you can easily shorten its effective
length. Fortunately the arms I mentioned are perfect.
I've heard about hum issues with Grado's, so from what
your saying they wouldn't be a good idea with the Pioneer.
IMO an arm transplant to the Pioneer is likely to be much
easier, though it does need improving but I can't see it
being too difficult to beef up and make / fit a decent mat.
It won't be a good as a fully reworked Philips, but I don't
know anyone who could rebuild a Philips properly.
(myself excepted of course
) sreten.ingvar ahlberg said:
The problem with the Philips is that it's seen quite its share of work. The rubber, that is glued to the plate, is completely uneven and has some tears. The belt needs to be replaced.
And to top it all, the ON/OFF switch stopped working a few years ago. The problem was solved the easiest way: getting rid of it, and connecting the wires directly. But whoever did that forgot to screw everything back in place. So the whole interior is loose inside the chassis. I could also take a picture, but it's not a pretty sight
In short, the Philips would require a lot of work to become a good turntable, while the Pioneer is in perfect condition. Considering how much of a newbie I am to tweaking turntables, I guess I'll start by changing the cartridge to a better match. But I think the Pioneer deserves a rebuild.
Hi Guys
been there done that and went further.
The PL 51 is a pretty good table with a few funnies , like sprung feet (adjustable for levelling) , remove and rubber coat the springs , use product made by Locktite. These were eventually replaced with AudioTechnica isolation feet ,rather scarce now.
next find a suitable aly box and transfer all the electronics to it and connect via a cable , I used a 9 pin D type connector plug and socket. Leave the motor circuitry where it is.
The original arm was removed and replaced with a 3009 MKII Improved and ran for a long time with either V15 III or Empire 1000 ZEX (or sime such) as well as a Empire 4000 DIII , ADC XLM VLM , Grado ?, Satin , Coral ,and a Signet TK7e carts. All the above were ok , with the exception of the Signet which vibrated itself right out of the plastic body (talk about the Grado jive) this was a rave session at least.
The Coral and Satin were way better being MCs' and the whole set up did duty in many a shoot out with a TD 125 MKII /3009 MKII /V15 III.
Then I got an Audio Technica AT OC9 MC and the wheels fell off. The Sme just could not get it right so I dumped it and got a Grace 707 MKII (Quadmaster) and it sang.
It MUST have a decent solid platform at least if the above is too much work.
There was a Pioneer MC cart specially made for this model called the PC 50 and I have seen it on Ebay in the past but must be as rare as hens' teeth.
Do have an owners manual somewhere and there was a right up in HFN/RR by Kesler I think on the whole series PL 51 ,61 and 71.
Oh and by the way the original arm was every bit as good as the 3009 in retrospect and I realise I only changed it because I believed all that , Sme uber alles crap hype of the time ,, auto lift at end of play just was not done old chap and made where ?just won't do me boy.
been there done that and went further.
The PL 51 is a pretty good table with a few funnies , like sprung feet (adjustable for levelling) , remove and rubber coat the springs , use product made by Locktite. These were eventually replaced with AudioTechnica isolation feet ,rather scarce now.
next find a suitable aly box and transfer all the electronics to it and connect via a cable , I used a 9 pin D type connector plug and socket. Leave the motor circuitry where it is.
The original arm was removed and replaced with a 3009 MKII Improved and ran for a long time with either V15 III or Empire 1000 ZEX (or sime such) as well as a Empire 4000 DIII , ADC XLM VLM , Grado ?, Satin , Coral ,and a Signet TK7e carts. All the above were ok , with the exception of the Signet which vibrated itself right out of the plastic body (talk about the Grado jive) this was a rave session at least.
The Coral and Satin were way better being MCs' and the whole set up did duty in many a shoot out with a TD 125 MKII /3009 MKII /V15 III.
Then I got an Audio Technica AT OC9 MC and the wheels fell off. The Sme just could not get it right so I dumped it and got a Grace 707 MKII (Quadmaster) and it sang.
It MUST have a decent solid platform at least if the above is too much work.
There was a Pioneer MC cart specially made for this model called the PC 50 and I have seen it on Ebay in the past but must be as rare as hens' teeth.
Do have an owners manual somewhere and there was a right up in HFN/RR by Kesler I think on the whole series PL 51 ,61 and 71.
Oh and by the way the original arm was every bit as good as the 3009 in retrospect and I realise I only changed it because I believed all that , Sme uber alles crap hype of the time ,, auto lift at end of play just was not done old chap and made where ?just won't do me boy.
Just add IMO the Pioneer arm is every bit as bad as the SME.
The grace arm at a good price is another choice.
For the said Pioneer arm - I have araldited all the joints, adjusted
the bearing for minimum play, chucked away the balance wieght,
and araldited a magnesium headshell in place without the usual
headshell rubber washer. It was somewhat better.
sreten.
The grace arm at a good price is another choice.
For the said Pioneer arm - I have araldited all the joints, adjusted
the bearing for minimum play, chucked away the balance wieght,
and araldited a magnesium headshell in place without the usual
headshell rubber washer. It was somewhat better.
sreten.- Status
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