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Old 8th March 2004, 06:50 PM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Porto Alegre
Quote:
Originally posted by sreten
Nice to see a pic of it though you link doesn't work.
(get a not authorised page)

The arm looks similar to the one fitted to the Pioneer
PL12D and is a limiting factor in subtlety, so basically
its not worth fitting anything too flash.

An arm transplant is required to use a very good cartridge.

sreten.
apparently the first picture I've attached went through. the link didn't work 'cause you have to be registered and logged in, I believe.

thanks for all the help, but I still have three questions:

1) the thing is, it already HAS a Shure cartridge. should I get rid of it and use something like the Audio-Technica, or is it just a question of being a waste of a good cartridge? I mean, would changing to a "worse" cartridge actually make the sound better?

2) I can't find anywhere whether the Shure VN35MR fits the old V15 Type III or only the MR models.

3) Which low-mass arm should I get for the Pionner, that would be a good fit for the Shure cartridge? (it seems foolish to me to spend money on another cartridge).
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Old 8th March 2004, 07:25 PM   #12
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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I severely doubt the other stylus will fit.

Old NOS (new old stock) V15III styli are likely to be perished.

A new stylus is usually 75% of the cost of the cost of a cartridge,
unless you are being artificially being charged for the cartridge body.

The AT cartridges should be much less than a new shure stylus.

Not getting a specific stylus gives you far more choice.

A new arm ? who can say ? If your trying to pick one up on the cheap.

There are good ones and not so good ones. Its a question of
what you can pick up second-hand at a reasonable price.

For Brazil its more difficult, as I don't know what arms were
imported there and in what quantities. But fixed headshell
is a good starting point.

sreten.
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Old 8th March 2004, 08:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by sreten
A new stylus is usually 75% of the cost of a cartridge,
unless you are being artificially charged for the cartridge body.

The AT cartridges should be much less than a new shure stylus.

Not getting a specific stylus gives you far more choice.
Ok, I guess I'll see if I can get a hold of one these cartridges. But it still breaks my heart to see an allegedly good cartridge go to waste, heh.

Quote:
A new arm ? who can say ? If your trying to pick one up on the cheap.

There are good ones and not so good ones. Its a question of
what you can pick up second-hand at a reasonable price.

For Brazil its more difficult, as I don't know what arms were
imported there and in what quantities. But fixed headshell
is a good starting point.

sreten.
I didn't consider the brazilian market for a second I have a friend who lives in Montreal and comes to Brazil for the holidays every year. I was thinking of either asking him to try and find something, or buy it over the internet from some trustworthy retailer.

Thanks for all the help, BTW.
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Old 8th March 2004, 08:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by sreten
I severely doubt the other stylus will fit.

Old NOS (new old stock) V15III styli are likely to be perished.
Messing around the Shure site, I found this chart:
http://www.shure.com/xrefphono.html

if I can understand it correctly, the VN35MR stylus will fit any V15 Type III cartridge. Which would mean some U$90,00 for it, and leave me with the job of finding a good arm for it.
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Old 8th March 2004, 08:36 PM   #15
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Dont bother with this stylus change, go for the AT 95 or a cheap Grado, both are far better cartridges than the Shure ever was, and the Shure absolutely isnīt suited for that arm plus not suited for a directdrive tt as it is far more sensitive to the magnetic strayfields around the motor. If You want to put a better arm on that player thereīs some extensive rework to do, the Philips is far more suited for an armchange
Buy the AT95 /110 and enjoy the music instead!
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Old 8th March 2004, 08:37 PM   #16
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Well personally to me its always good to fit a tone-arm to
an older turntable that that could have been fitted when it
was new, especially if you can find one cheap.

So we are dealing with North America, again a slight problem
as I don't know what was popular at the time over the pond.

A lowish mass arm would be as nice touch, fixed headshell.

Audio Technica made some decent ones, think you could
swap armtubes on these.

There's the Mayware Formula 4 and Hadcock unipivots,
there was also a popular Japanese unipivot but I can't
remember the maker or model, around Ģ80 here at the
time. (It may come to me in the next few days....)

Theres the classic Mission arm, though I don't think you
could get this cheap, the same for the SME low mass arm.

Checkout the tone-arm manuals here :

http://www.nakedresource.com/phpBB2/index.php

This is very good value, as the tip will last at least
twice as long as an elliptical stylus and suits lowish
mass arms well :

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c....it.A/id.219/.f

If your going for a transplant post some pics of the
pioneer internals for some suggestions of mods.

sreten.
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Old 8th March 2004, 08:59 PM   #17
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by ingvar ahlberg
Dont bother with this stylus change, go for the AT 95 or a cheap Grado, both are far better cartridges than the Shure ever was, and the Shure absolutely isnīt suited for that arm plus not suited for a directdrive tt as it is far more sensitive to the magnetic strayfields around the motor. If You want to put a better arm on that player thereīs some extensive rework to do, the Philips is far more suited for an armchange
Buy the AT95 /110 and enjoy the music instead!
Well the Philips basically needs a total rebuild and arm
changing is very difficult (unless you have a lathe), you
also need an arm that you can easily shorten its effective
length. Fortunately the arms I mentioned are perfect.

I've heard about hum issues with Grado's, so from what
your saying they wouldn't be a good idea with the Pioneer.

IMO an arm transplant to the Pioneer is likely to be much
easier, though it does need improving but I can't see it
being too difficult to beef up and make / fit a decent mat.

It won't be a good as a fully reworked Philips, but I don't
know anyone who could rebuild a Philips properly.
(myself excepted of course )

sreten.
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Old 8th March 2004, 09:00 PM   #18
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by ingvar ahlberg
Dont bother with this stylus change, go for the AT 95 or a cheap Grado, both are far better cartridges than the Shure ever was, and the Shure absolutely isnīt suited for that arm plus not suited for a directdrive tt as it is far more sensitive to the magnetic strayfields around the motor. If You want to put a better arm on that player thereīs some extensive rework to do, the Philips is far more suited for an armchange
Buy the AT95 /110 and enjoy the music instead!
The problem with the Philips is that it's seen quite its share of work. The rubber, that is glued to the plate, is completely uneven and has some tears. The belt needs to be replaced.

And to top it all, the ON/OFF switch stopped working a few years ago. The problem was solved the easiest way: getting rid of it, and connecting the wires directly. But whoever did that forgot to screw everything back in place. So the whole interior is loose inside the chassis. I could also take a picture, but it's not a pretty sight

In short, the Philips would require a lot of work to become a good turntable, while the Pioneer is in perfect condition. Considering how much of a newbie I am to tweaking turntables, I guess I'll start by changing the cartridge to a better match. But I think the Pioneer deserves a rebuild.
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Old 9th March 2004, 09:29 AM   #19
ktigerb is offline ktigerb  South Africa
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Hi Guys

been there done that and went further.
The PL 51 is a pretty good table with a few funnies , like sprung feet (adjustable for levelling) , remove and rubber coat the springs , use product made by Locktite. These were eventually replaced with AudioTechnica isolation feet ,rather scarce now.
next find a suitable aly box and transfer all the electronics to it and connect via a cable , I used a 9 pin D type connector plug and socket. Leave the motor circuitry where it is.
The original arm was removed and replaced with a 3009 MKII Improved and ran for a long time with either V15 III or Empire 1000 ZEX (or sime such) as well as a Empire 4000 DIII , ADC XLM VLM , Grado ?, Satin , Coral ,and a Signet TK7e carts. All the above were ok , with the exception of the Signet which vibrated itself right out of the plastic body (talk about the Grado jive) this was a rave session at least.
The Coral and Satin were way better being MCs' and the whole set up did duty in many a shoot out with a TD 125 MKII /3009 MKII /V15 III.
Then I got an Audio Technica AT OC9 MC and the wheels fell off. The Sme just could not get it right so I dumped it and got a Grace 707 MKII (Quadmaster) and it sang.
It MUST have a decent solid platform at least if the above is too much work.
There was a Pioneer MC cart specially made for this model called the PC 50 and I have seen it on Ebay in the past but must be as rare as hens' teeth.
Do have an owners manual somewhere and there was a right up in HFN/RR by Kesler I think on the whole series PL 51 ,61 and 71.
Oh and by the way the original arm was every bit as good as the 3009 in retrospect and I realise I only changed it because I believed all that , Sme uber alles crap hype of the time ,, auto lift at end of play just was not done old chap and made where ?just won't do me boy.
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Old 9th March 2004, 09:45 AM   #20
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Just add IMO the Pioneer arm is every bit as bad as the SME.

The grace arm at a good price is another choice.

For the said Pioneer arm - I have araldited all the joints, adjusted
the bearing for minimum play, chucked away the balance wieght,
and araldited a magnesium headshell in place without the usual
headshell rubber washer. It was somewhat better.

sreten.
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