Which cartridge is better the Shure V15 Type III or the Grado Gold? I've found a few on ebay for about the same price, and was wondering which one to pick, seeing as how both have a good reputation. Are the V15 variants all that different? How much of a difference would a Type III be compared to current production?
Just to add to the other comments :
Definitely the Grado gold for most systems and tone arms.
But it does seem pricey for a cartridge with a bush mounted
elliptical tip, which seems no different to the cheaper Prestige
models, I'd suggest a Grado Red is probably better value.
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT106601/sc.2/category.374/it.A/id.248/.f
For an advanced state of the art MM cartridge in the V15 vein :
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT106601/sc.2/category.363/it.A/id.219/.f
Note that due to the stylus tip profile stylus life will be at least
twice as long as an elliptical tip, in this context very good value.
sreten.
Definitely the Grado gold for most systems and tone arms.
But it does seem pricey for a cartridge with a bush mounted
elliptical tip, which seems no different to the cheaper Prestige
models, I'd suggest a Grado Red is probably better value.
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT106601/sc.2/category.374/it.A/id.248/.f
For an advanced state of the art MM cartridge in the V15 vein :
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT106601/sc.2/category.363/it.A/id.219/.f
Note that due to the stylus tip profile stylus life will be at least
twice as long as an elliptical tip, in this context very good value.
sreten.
If the arm is an ancient design a high quality cartridge is pointless.
The Grado's (all 20 cu) suit medium mass arms around 10g
effective mass. 20 cu seems to be settled on as a standard
compliance for modern cartridges. (15g total mass gives 10Hz)
Effective mass higher than this is now the province of the DJ
world - because cartridges designed for high mass arms, > 15g
effective mass, total mass > 20g, work extremely well in medium
mass arms for DJ'ing type shenanigans, e.g. back cueing.
Grado don't even publish the compliance unit values of their
DJ cartridges.
High mass arms need 5cu to 10cu and this covers all the range
of Ortofons "Disco" cartridges which cover 6 cu to 9cu.
the graph shows 6cu to 40cu and 4g to 40g mass, note total mass
= arm effective mass + mass of the cartridge. Target is near 10Hz.
Also note that for a 5g cartridge mass an arm effective mass <
5g is essentially pointless and will severely compromises rigidity.
sreten.
The Grado's (all 20 cu) suit medium mass arms around 10g
effective mass. 20 cu seems to be settled on as a standard
compliance for modern cartridges. (15g total mass gives 10Hz)
Effective mass higher than this is now the province of the DJ
world - because cartridges designed for high mass arms, > 15g
effective mass, total mass > 20g, work extremely well in medium
mass arms for DJ'ing type shenanigans, e.g. back cueing.
Grado don't even publish the compliance unit values of their
DJ cartridges.
High mass arms need 5cu to 10cu and this covers all the range
of Ortofons "Disco" cartridges which cover 6 cu to 9cu.
the graph shows 6cu to 40cu and 4g to 40g mass, note total mass
= arm effective mass + mass of the cartridge. Target is near 10Hz.
Also note that for a 5g cartridge mass an arm effective mass <
5g is essentially pointless and will severely compromises rigidity.
sreten.Attachments
mig-ru: The Shure V15 III sounded good in an SME3009/S2 which was a low mass arm (and probably designed with the V15 in mind). That combination works; very few other arms would have sufficently low mass. But, as SY says, the rubber bung that forms the stylus bearing dries out over the years. A new cartridge is better.
SY: Now I'll contradict myself by owning up to having recently acquired an NOS Euphonics strain gauge cartridge. (Haven't had yet the courage to allow it to plough any of my wiggly furrows though.) Do you have any information on the Panasonic derivative?
SY: Now I'll contradict myself by owning up to having recently acquired an NOS Euphonics strain gauge cartridge. (Haven't had yet the courage to allow it to plough any of my wiggly furrows though.) Do you have any information on the Panasonic derivative?
Haven't heard the Euphonics.
The Panasonic unit was marketed here in the US by Robertson (who had some ultra-expensive interface) and a long-defunct company in Colorado (who had a much cheaper interface and whose name eludes me at the moment). I spent a week with the latter; it was great-sounding, but the lack of compliance scared the heck out of me. From my recollection, they used a pretty standard Burr-Brown instrumentation amp with a normal bridge setup, but had to do some creative work on the EQ (mostly to take care of the plateau between the turnovers), since it was amplitude-sensitive rather than velocity-sensitive. Both the Panasonic implemetations did very well in a Weathers arm.
I wonder if the Euphonics might be another Panasonic variant?
There was also a strain gauge marketed by Sao Win, but the one sample I heard was terrible- really, really resonant in the upper midrange, enough so to make my ear sockets bleed. I understand that some units were better.
Anyway, I'm still convinced that amplitude-sensing has some sonic advantages, but we're too far down the death spiral of phono reproduction to make it worth pursuing.
The Panasonic unit was marketed here in the US by Robertson (who had some ultra-expensive interface) and a long-defunct company in Colorado (who had a much cheaper interface and whose name eludes me at the moment). I spent a week with the latter; it was great-sounding, but the lack of compliance scared the heck out of me. From my recollection, they used a pretty standard Burr-Brown instrumentation amp with a normal bridge setup, but had to do some creative work on the EQ (mostly to take care of the plateau between the turnovers), since it was amplitude-sensitive rather than velocity-sensitive. Both the Panasonic implemetations did very well in a Weathers arm.
I wonder if the Euphonics might be another Panasonic variant?
There was also a strain gauge marketed by Sao Win, but the one sample I heard was terrible- really, really resonant in the upper midrange, enough so to make my ear sockets bleed. I understand that some units were better.
Anyway, I'm still convinced that amplitude-sensing has some sonic advantages, but we're too far down the death spiral of phono reproduction to make it worth pursuing.
One more thing- the displacement of the stylus in that Panasonic system was so low that I wonder about whether the deterioration of the rubber would even be an issue.
And on the theme of contradiction, if I could find a NOS stylus for my beloved and sorely-missed Panasonic EPC100C Mk4, I'd still take the risk, buy it, and see how it does. But three extensive searches through Tokyo turned up nothing, alas.
And on the theme of contradiction, if I could find a NOS stylus for my beloved and sorely-missed Panasonic EPC100C Mk4, I'd still take the risk, buy it, and see how it does. But three extensive searches through Tokyo turned up nothing, alas.
According to "Handbook for Sound Engineers" 2nd Ed. strain gauge catridges were developed (I note that it doesn't say invented) by J F Wood and George Grover of the Euphonics Corporation. Fixing the RIAA equalisation should be dead easy if the transducer was perfect. But, it has to be said that the Euphonics pre-amplifier doesn't do quite what you'd expect.
On a friend's system, I listened to the Euphonics for three hours (through Lowthers), and didn't run screaming from the room. Nevertheless, that huge cantilever and stylus lump, coupled in 1970s crystal cartridge style still scares the willies out of me.
Surely the displacement is a mechanical issue, not transducer-related?
On a friend's system, I listened to the Euphonics for three hours (through Lowthers), and didn't run screaming from the room. Nevertheless, that huge cantilever and stylus lump, coupled in 1970s crystal cartridge style still scares the willies out of me.
Surely the displacement is a mechanical issue, not transducer-related?
Depends on your definitions. A strain gauge has very minimal displacement itself; what counts is the mechanical system that's coupled to it. I'm not too crazy about what Panasonic did for their mechanical coupling (never took one apart to see exactly).
There was a similar issue with another strain-actuated cartridge which (if my fading memory serves) was called Microacoustics. The stylus displacement in each of these cases was quite satisfactory for tracing grooves, but any warp or eccentricity would force the entire arm to move, despite its damping (ouch!). I had visions of black curls of PVC being shaved out of the groove. In reality, my records survived a week of heavy use with the Panasonic, but I never quite trusted it, despite a notably clear and dynamic sound.
The FM concept still makes the most sense to me, and the Weathers was sonic proof.
There was a similar issue with another strain-actuated cartridge which (if my fading memory serves) was called Microacoustics. The stylus displacement in each of these cases was quite satisfactory for tracing grooves, but any warp or eccentricity would force the entire arm to move, despite its damping (ouch!). I had visions of black curls of PVC being shaved out of the groove. In reality, my records survived a week of heavy use with the Panasonic, but I never quite trusted it, despite a notably clear and dynamic sound.
The FM concept still makes the most sense to me, and the Weathers was sonic proof.
This is my first post, so I hope I'm doing this right. The Panasonic strain gauge is near and dear to my heart, gotta say something. With regards to compliance, this is the issue at hand for me now. I have not noticed any real record wear, but one thing that recently happened was the cartridge flew out of the groove when tracking the cannon shots on Telarc's Tchaikovsky's 1812 recording. I have been out of audio for awhile and came back recently, and see I have some tonearm/cartridge issues to resolve, hence my renewed interest in the strain gauge. Currently, my arm is the Pioneer PA-1000 carbon fiber, with may be a little on the light side (?). Aside from the Weathers arm, any suggestions as to what currently available one might be better?
The electronics I'm using now were acquired from a company in Colorado that was spoken of earlier, possibly referring to one called Classic Creations at the time, later becoming Jeff Rowland Design Group. Classic Creations went bankrupt as I understand (I had a friend who worked for Jeff tell me this at any rate) and some rich guy liked his designs and got him back in bizz as JRDG. My electronics has the Rowland Logo on it, and the box it came in has the Classic Creations address label. The electronics is transistor based, no opamps, and there is EQ tweaking circuitry. It is the best phono I have ever heard, but then I have to admit I by no means have heard it all. I do have to be quite skeptical about the $1000's one can spend, when this $75 cartridge kicks so much butt. I think it's as revealing as the rest of your system will allow it to be.
The electronics I'm using now were acquired from a company in Colorado that was spoken of earlier, possibly referring to one called Classic Creations at the time, later becoming Jeff Rowland Design Group. Classic Creations went bankrupt as I understand (I had a friend who worked for Jeff tell me this at any rate) and some rich guy liked his designs and got him back in bizz as JRDG. My electronics has the Rowland Logo on it, and the box it came in has the Classic Creations address label. The electronics is transistor based, no opamps, and there is EQ tweaking circuitry. It is the best phono I have ever heard, but then I have to admit I by no means have heard it all. I do have to be quite skeptical about the $1000's one can spend, when this $75 cartridge kicks so much butt. I think it's as revealing as the rest of your system will allow it to be.
I'm dead curious...
Welcome to the forum! Do you have any of the paperwork that came with the cartridge to say what its compliance is? That should enable a few guesses as to an optimum arm. Are you saying that you power (oh yes, it needs power) the cartridge from a Jeff Rowlands pre-amplifier/power supply, rather than the original Panasonic one? Can you post a photograph of the cartridge (and or) electronics?
Welcome to the forum! Do you have any of the paperwork that came with the cartridge to say what its compliance is? That should enable a few guesses as to an optimum arm. Are you saying that you power (oh yes, it needs power) the cartridge from a Jeff Rowlands pre-amplifier/power supply, rather than the original Panasonic one? Can you post a photograph of the cartridge (and or) electronics?
strain gauge info
Hello EC8010, thanks for the welcome. The data I have on the cartridge is sort of fading, but near as I can make out the compliance says "8 x 10** (-5 ????) cm/dyne, which is one of the reasons I had a question to begin with. Guess I'll have to drag out my old books and probably do some units converting too.
As for the electronics, yes sir I'm using the JR units specially designed for the strain gauge. In the early 80's, I was a student in Wyoming and the Rowland stuff was just local I think, maybe national to some degree, but definitely not internat'l like today. His stuff used to be very cheap too, which is perhaps why the bizz initially failed. I really couldn't tell you all the forces involved with keeping the cartridge system from making it big, but I do suppose one was that Panasonic stopped making it, and that it simply takes time for any new product from an "unknown" manufacturer to be accepted. The cartridge system simply didn't have a chance given the circumstances, and may have been a little too unique and even odd to most folks. I mean, we all had our MM and MC pickups,..what else was there...right? Now that I've been drumming up some memories, I do seem to vaguely recall that 2 models were available, one opamp based and the discrete one. There was a place also in CO called Transcendental Audio where some Rowland stuff was available, and it's from their brochure I seem to recall the 2 choices. They also had the Panasonic EAS400 leaf tweeters I have the pleasure of owning,..sigh,.. but I digress.... It pains me to think about such wonderful, wonderful products gone bye-bye. I am lucky to have been in the right place at the right time for these products.
I'm sorry I don't have a camera to get you a pic, but I did manage to locate one website where you can get a look:
www.trenner-friedl.com/rowland_museum/Foyer.htm
The preamp system is model STA-1, with an MPS-1 power supply, in separate stackable chassis. Neither have any controls, knobs, or switches. The unit sandwiched in the middle in the pic looks to be a regular preamp. Keying in "rowland sta-1" in Google got me the website. As for the cartridge, it's basically rectangular with a curved bevel on the top front end.
To add more fuel to an already obscure fire, I'll lay some more stuff on you. When we were auditioning this system in those early days, my friend produced an aftermarket stylus assembly that contained a boron cantilever, made in Australia as I recall. He also mentioned something about the Absolute Sound too, (possibly doing a review on it????) . It kicked the performance up a notch or two. If you can imagine listening to a phono that opens a window into the performance like the stock unit did, then someone comes along and opens up another window on top of the one already open, then you can get a drift of what we were hearing. Since I've made it back from my Rip van Winkle status, this boron tip is something I've been trying to hunt down. I'm afraid all my contacts way back when are gone now, but I do suppose half the fun in all this is the searching.
Hello EC8010, thanks for the welcome. The data I have on the cartridge is sort of fading, but near as I can make out the compliance says "8 x 10** (-5 ????) cm/dyne, which is one of the reasons I had a question to begin with. Guess I'll have to drag out my old books and probably do some units converting too.
As for the electronics, yes sir I'm using the JR units specially designed for the strain gauge. In the early 80's, I was a student in Wyoming and the Rowland stuff was just local I think, maybe national to some degree, but definitely not internat'l like today. His stuff used to be very cheap too, which is perhaps why the bizz initially failed. I really couldn't tell you all the forces involved with keeping the cartridge system from making it big, but I do suppose one was that Panasonic stopped making it, and that it simply takes time for any new product from an "unknown" manufacturer to be accepted. The cartridge system simply didn't have a chance given the circumstances, and may have been a little too unique and even odd to most folks. I mean, we all had our MM and MC pickups,..what else was there...right? Now that I've been drumming up some memories, I do seem to vaguely recall that 2 models were available, one opamp based and the discrete one. There was a place also in CO called Transcendental Audio where some Rowland stuff was available, and it's from their brochure I seem to recall the 2 choices. They also had the Panasonic EAS400 leaf tweeters I have the pleasure of owning,..sigh,.. but I digress....
It pains me to think about such wonderful, wonderful products gone bye-bye. I am lucky to have been in the right place at the right time for these products. I'm sorry I don't have a camera to get you a pic, but I did manage to locate one website where you can get a look:
www.trenner-friedl.com/rowland_museum/Foyer.htm
The preamp system is model STA-1, with an MPS-1 power supply, in separate stackable chassis. Neither have any controls, knobs, or switches. The unit sandwiched in the middle in the pic looks to be a regular preamp. Keying in "rowland sta-1" in Google got me the website. As for the cartridge, it's basically rectangular with a curved bevel on the top front end.
To add more fuel to an already obscure fire, I'll lay some more stuff on you. When we were auditioning this system in those early days, my friend produced an aftermarket stylus assembly that contained a boron cantilever, made in Australia as I recall. He also mentioned something about the Absolute Sound too, (possibly doing a review on it????) . It kicked the performance up a notch or two. If you can imagine listening to a phono that opens a window into the performance like the stock unit did, then someone comes along and opens up another window on top of the one already open, then you can get a drift of what we were hearing. Since I've made it back from my Rip van Winkle status, this boron tip is something I've been trying to hunt down. I'm afraid all my contacts way back when are gone now, but I do suppose half the fun in all this is the searching.
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