Underhang minimizes skating effects but some think it increases distortion. The designer of the Viv arm believes overhang actually creates the skating effect. If you have more than the partial twist in your fishing line (ie: a full rotation or more) then you are not getting the antiskate benefits of the Well Tempered design. Mine will track okay like that too, but there's not much, if any, antiskate force generated... which the Well Tempered design provides.
That photo was taken when I had it set for overhang with the cartridge rotated. I now have the cartridge mounted parallel to the arm tube and the arm positioned under underhang using a description of the protractor used to set up the Viv Rigid Float. I have a full twist in the fishing line to minimize anti skate.
Hi
I've been experimenting with the underhang arrangement-quite interesting-I'm not sure as to the results so will keep my thoughts to myself for now. Regarding a 'full twist'-this is too much and will result in too much bias. try 90 degrees (making sure this is an anticlockwise twist before slipping it over the grommet) -or a 'half-twist' in your words. An arm of 11.5" needs hardly any bias at all-if any.
Regards
Chris
I've been experimenting with the underhang arrangement-quite interesting-I'm not sure as to the results so will keep my thoughts to myself for now. Regarding a 'full twist'-this is too much and will result in too much bias. try 90 degrees (making sure this is an anticlockwise twist before slipping it over the grommet) -or a 'half-twist' in your words. An arm of 11.5" needs hardly any bias at all-if any.
Regards
Chris
reply to post
I consider this a full twist, do you? With this full twist I get little to know anti skate
I realize that this is from an early version of the arm you posted with shots of your table. They got me thinking about things - like why it appeared to me that your cartridge looks mounted parallel to the arm tube.
I consider this a full twist, do you? With this full twist I get little to know anti skate
I realize that this is from an early version of the arm you posted with shots of your table. They got me thinking about things - like why it appeared to me that your cartridge looks mounted parallel to the arm tube.
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I'm going to see if I can find a collar of sorts to adapt a 1/4" d rod to my existing 3/4" d pillar - trying a smaller diameter grommet might then allow the partial twist to work properly. Also, it's my understanding that more traditional 12" arms track heavier, which is why there is this prevailing thought that no anti skate is needed on longer arms. With the lightweight materials we can now use, the need for anti skate when using overhang may likely be necessary.
Here's a shot of a Well Tempered arm with full twist. It makes me so curious when I see such things around the net... it this improperly set up? Is WT now recommending such a twist? So curious.
This photo also makes me a little crazy... looks to me that the pillar is 3/4"d, the suspension arm is 3/8"d and the grommet radius appears nearly the same as my 3/8"d grommet.
Here's a shot of a Well Tempered arm with full twist. It makes me so curious when I see such things around the net... it this improperly set up? Is WT now recommending such a twist? So curious.
This photo also makes me a little crazy... looks to me that the pillar is 3/4"d, the suspension arm is 3/8"d and the grommet radius appears nearly the same as my 3/8"d grommet.
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post to my reply
Edited comments:
Here's a shot of a Well Tempered arm with full twist. It makes me so curious when I see such things around the net... it this improperly set up? Is WT now recommending such a twist? So curious.
The photo of the WT Versa arm also makes me a little crazy... looks to me that the pillar is 3/4"d, the suspension arm is 3/8"d and the grommet radius appears nearly the same as my 3/8"d grommet. The twist is at least going in the correct direction...
Also, in the close up photo of your arm I posted above, that twist is going in the wrong direction, causing skating force that pushes the arm toward the enter rather than give it a bit of anti skate and pulling it back as it approaches the record's end. I'm sure this was an oversight on your part.
Edited comments:
Here's a shot of a Well Tempered arm with full twist. It makes me so curious when I see such things around the net... it this improperly set up? Is WT now recommending such a twist? So curious.
The photo of the WT Versa arm also makes me a little crazy... looks to me that the pillar is 3/4"d, the suspension arm is 3/8"d and the grommet radius appears nearly the same as my 3/8"d grommet. The twist is at least going in the correct direction...
Also, in the close up photo of your arm I posted above, that twist is going in the wrong direction, causing skating force that pushes the arm toward the enter rather than give it a bit of anti skate and pulling it back as it approaches the record's end. I'm sure this was an oversight on your part.
Hi.
yes -that early shot was the wrong way round!! However< i have built at least six or seven models since then with the arrangement shown in my later pictures and all perform perfectly It is such a simple design that it is almost impossible to get wrong. Another thing that occurs- is your arm tube at a perfect right angle to the threads supporting the golf ball? On the subject of overhang, up to yesterday, the cartridge has always been offset by around 21 degrees for a 12" arm. This is why the current experiment is so fascinating. Another silly question-your tracking weight is correct?
Regards
Chris
yes -that early shot was the wrong way round!! However< i have built at least six or seven models since then with the arrangement shown in my later pictures and all perform perfectly It is such a simple design that it is almost impossible to get wrong. Another thing that occurs- is your arm tube at a perfect right angle to the threads supporting the golf ball? On the subject of overhang, up to yesterday, the cartridge has always been offset by around 21 degrees for a 12" arm. This is why the current experiment is so fascinating. Another silly question-your tracking weight is correct?
Regards
Chris
Yep. Tracking weight is 1.65g. Right now I'm running an original Blue Point Special but I have a new headshell with Benz Silver MC to add pone once I get around to rewiring the arm. The only variable I can see that might be causing anti-skate issues is the suspension arm and grommet diameter.
Reply to posts
Update:
Working more on my Well Tempered clone. I re-wired the arm and modified the armtube and added a new headshell. I changed the suspension arm to a 1/4" diameter rod and am using the smallest diameter rubber grommet I can find. I rotated the golf ball as much as possible clockwise to minimize antiskate force on arm. The arm behaves much better (single backward skip per side gone) but it still pulled an Audio Technica 440MLa cantilever at a permanent angle: antiskate force pulling away from center is just too much, at least for this small a cantilever. I may have to go back to running with underhang just to hang on to what's left of my sanity. Thoughts?
Update:
Working more on my Well Tempered clone. I re-wired the arm and modified the armtube and added a new headshell. I changed the suspension arm to a 1/4" diameter rod and am using the smallest diameter rubber grommet I can find. I rotated the golf ball as much as possible clockwise to minimize antiskate force on arm. The arm behaves much better (single backward skip per side gone) but it still pulled an Audio Technica 440MLa cantilever at a permanent angle: antiskate force pulling away from center is just too much, at least for this small a cantilever. I may have to go back to running with underhang just to hang on to what's left of my sanity. Thoughts?
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Hi,
Use a small washer to bring the threads closer together underneath the rubber grommet.
Alternatively washers the grommet fits with various width slots cut into them.
Alternatively make a small rectangle with a ridged V groove to fit under the grommet.
The V is along the length and the aligned ridges allow you to vary the antiskate.
rgds, sreten.
Use a small washer to bring the threads closer together underneath the rubber grommet.
Alternatively washers the grommet fits with various width slots cut into them.
Alternatively make a small rectangle with a ridged V groove to fit under the grommet.
The V is along the length and the aligned ridges allow you to vary the antiskate.
rgds, sreten.
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Reply to posts
I had seen that done on another WT clone. Also, on my WTRP, the holes for the fishing line are only 1/8" or so apart so the small loop under the suspension arm is a good idea to mimic that. Perhaps with a small loop fro a necklace 198"d or so.
Look at these two images from the WT Simplex manual. Both show a full twist in the lines, not a partial twist as they say in print. When I've done the full twist using overhang and an offset angle, has resulted in poor tracking. Their metal grommet show here is such a large diameter, it's no wonder they are using a full twist.
I don't quite follow your idea of using a rectangle... are you referring to a diamond shape?
Of course, with your idea of adding a small loop or washer under the grommet I could go back to my larger suspension arm and larger grommet.
I had seen that done on another WT clone. Also, on my WTRP, the holes for the fishing line are only 1/8" or so apart so the small loop under the suspension arm is a good idea to mimic that. Perhaps with a small loop fro a necklace 198"d or so.
Look at these two images from the WT Simplex manual. Both show a full twist in the lines, not a partial twist as they say in print. When I've done the full twist using overhang and an offset angle, has resulted in poor tracking. Their metal grommet show here is such a large diameter, it's no wonder they are using a full twist.
I don't quite follow your idea of using a rectangle... are you referring to a diamond shape?
Of course, with your idea of adding a small loop or washer under the grommet I could go back to my larger suspension arm and larger grommet.
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Hi Everyone
Just re-read some of the later items on this thread. I still can't help thinking that the tracking issue is due to something other than the loop/diameter of suspension arm etc....
As I have stated previously, I have built several of these arms (am working on a 12" currently) and tracking and handling have consistently been superb with both mc (Ortofon MC 15 super/AT OC7) and mm (Goldring 1042). Could there be a problem with the lead out wires-are they pulling at the arm as it nears the record centre?
Chris
Just re-read some of the later items on this thread. I still can't help thinking that the tracking issue is due to something other than the loop/diameter of suspension arm etc....
As I have stated previously, I have built several of these arms (am working on a 12" currently) and tracking and handling have consistently been superb with both mc (Ortofon MC 15 super/AT OC7) and mm (Goldring 1042). Could there be a problem with the lead out wires-are they pulling at the arm as it nears the record centre?
Chris
I had that issue with the LP Lab carbon fiber arm mod on my WTT and it's less flexible Discovery wires, but not with this arm. The original wires and the arm's new rewire are very flexible and move very easily with the back of the arm, not influencing the arm as the Discovery wires did the another. The arm pulls at the cantilever at the beginning of the record and thru out play, not just at the end of a side.
Are you running your arm with the fishing line not touching as it comes off the grommet or do you have it in a full twist with the line touching? In my thinking, this is the only factor influencing the arm's too strong antiskate - it's strong enough to actually pull the cantilever at an angle when viewed from the cartridge front. An AT 440MLa cantilever was permanently deformed, even though the suspension arm and grommet diameters were significantly reduced. Perhaps a cartridge with a thicker cantilever would have been less influenced but I have no extra cartridges at present to test. Even with the golf ball rotated clockwise as much as possible to reduce the tension of the suspension, the antiskate was still too much.
Looking at the WT Record Player and it's closely spaced (approx. 1/8") fishing lines, the addition of a small diameter washer or loop below the grommet makes good sense. I'll need help to feed the line thru a loop and rehang. Note the fishing line in the Simplex set up pics actually indicated it touching. For every pic to see of a Simplex style WT arm lines not touching you see another with a full touching twist.
Stay tuned. Any further thought are, as always, appreciated.
Are you running your arm with the fishing line not touching as it comes off the grommet or do you have it in a full twist with the line touching? In my thinking, this is the only factor influencing the arm's too strong antiskate - it's strong enough to actually pull the cantilever at an angle when viewed from the cartridge front. An AT 440MLa cantilever was permanently deformed, even though the suspension arm and grommet diameters were significantly reduced. Perhaps a cartridge with a thicker cantilever would have been less influenced but I have no extra cartridges at present to test. Even with the golf ball rotated clockwise as much as possible to reduce the tension of the suspension, the antiskate was still too much.
Looking at the WT Record Player and it's closely spaced (approx. 1/8") fishing lines, the addition of a small diameter washer or loop below the grommet makes good sense. I'll need help to feed the line thru a loop and rehang. Note the fishing line in the Simplex set up pics actually indicated it touching. For every pic to see of a Simplex style WT arm lines not touching you see another with a full touching twist.
Stay tuned. Any further thought are, as always, appreciated.
Tracking issues
Hi.
The effect on the cantilever is very extreme!! Sounds like you have a damaged cartridge. Relating to the 'twist'- You talk about 'full twists' and I can confirm that I twist it clockwise by 180 degrees - a 'full twist' would be 360 in my reckoning and certainly would have an adverse effect on tracking .
I've even used the arms (to test them) without any fluid in the cup and tracking has never been an issue.
Picture of mine close up to follow.
Chris
Hi.
The effect on the cantilever is very extreme!! Sounds like you have a damaged cartridge. Relating to the 'twist'- You talk about 'full twists' and I can confirm that I twist it clockwise by 180 degrees - a 'full twist' would be 360 in my reckoning and certainly would have an adverse effect on tracking .
I've even used the arms (to test them) without any fluid in the cup and tracking has never been an issue.
Picture of mine close up to follow.
Chris
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