I have a Goldring lenco GL75 with addition spike and squash balls isolation.
I got hold of an ortofon cartridge with the VMS 3 Mk II stylus.
I have recently aquired both a F15 sylus and a FF15E Mk II stylus.
The VM<S 3 Mk II sounds very flat and veiled by comparison with the other two. The F15 sounds lively and quite bright. The FF15E Mk II sounds the most balanced and natural with good cymbal sounds.
The problem I have is that both the F15 and FF15E Mk II are used (the FF15E was described as worn out). They both sound great.
Firstly what should I be looking for in identifying if they are past there sell by date?
What sort of damage will I be doing to my records using old stylus' ?
Lastly how far can I go with this series of stylus's and where can I expect to get my hands on replacements, and what price should I be expecting to pay?
Any advise much appreciated.
Shoog
I got hold of an ortofon cartridge with the VMS 3 Mk II stylus.
I have recently aquired both a F15 sylus and a FF15E Mk II stylus.
The VM<S 3 Mk II sounds very flat and veiled by comparison with the other two. The F15 sounds lively and quite bright. The FF15E Mk II sounds the most balanced and natural with good cymbal sounds.
The problem I have is that both the F15 and FF15E Mk II are used (the FF15E was described as worn out). They both sound great.
Firstly what should I be looking for in identifying if they are past there sell by date?
What sort of damage will I be doing to my records using old stylus' ?
Lastly how far can I go with this series of stylus's and where can I expect to get my hands on replacements, and what price should I be expecting to pay?
Any advise much appreciated.
Shoog
If they are simply worn out treble detail suffers, especially
towards the centre of an LP where high frequency tracking
in the most difficult due to the "squashing" of the groove.
If you can't hear mistracking then damage is unlikely.
The VMS3 is a dull sounding cartridge, I had one.
The VMS20E was allegedly the best of this bunch,
but the original is unlikely to suit the Lenco arm.
Having said that, the official Ortofon replacements don't
seem to follow the originals models specifications .
checkout :
https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Ortofon_25.html
http://www.ortofon.com/html/body_replacement_styli.html
sreten.fdegrove said:Hi,
Do you care to explain this?
Cheers,
?????????
Tracing loss can be defined as the difference between the path
the stylus takes and the path the original cutter took whilst
cutting the record.
The tracing loss of of a spherical stylus is well documented, as
is the advantages of elliptical and more advanced profiles.
Critical to this tracing loss is the physical pitch / angle of the
signal to be traced on the record. It is well known a spherical
stylus shows a treble loss of ~ 2dB at the centre of a record
compared to more advanced stylus shapes.
Tracing loss increases with the frequency and modulation of the signal.
Referring to any signal on a 12" record :
On the outside of the record radius ~ 140mm, at the centre ~ 80mm.
So at the centre of the record the physical pitch will be 43% shorter
for a given signal.
Or in other words a 14KHz signal on the outside has the
same dimensions as a 8kHz signal at the centre, or the
dimensions of a 20Khz signal at the centre are equivalent
to a 35Khz signal at the outside of a record.
If a stylus has lost its profile it shows more tracing loss,
which is worst at the centre of a record, as stated.
Its a pity for classical music which often ends with loudest and
most energetic movements they didn't make LP's play from the
centre outwards to the rim.
sreten.
Hi,
So, if I read you correctly it's not really the squashing of the groove at the middle of the disc but rather mistracking due to misalignment of the cartridge at that position.
Something that occurs with any pivoted arm anyway.
To the best of my knowledge a worn cartridge tip will exhibit a loss of high frequency response whatever it's position on the record depending on groove modulation.
Since groove modulation is depending on content it can occur anywhere on the disc.
Cheers,
So, if I read you correctly it's not really the squashing of the groove at the middle of the disc but rather mistracking due to misalignment of the cartridge at that position.
Something that occurs with any pivoted arm anyway.
To the best of my knowledge a worn cartridge tip will exhibit a loss of high frequency response whatever it's position on the record depending on groove modulation.
Since groove modulation is depending on content it can occur anywhere on the disc.
Cheers,
Attachments
fdegrove said:Hi,
So, if I read you correctly it's not really the squashing of the groove at the middle of the disc but rather mistracking due to misalignment of the cartridge at that position.
Something that occurs with any pivoted arm anyway.
To the best of my knowledge a worn cartridge tip will exhibit a loss of high frequency response whatever it's position on the record depending on groove modulation.
Since groove modulation is depending on content it can occur anywhere on the disc.
Cheers,
No you have not read me correctly,
and its not related to the tracking error of a pivoted arm.
Your second paragraph is true but does not tell the whole story,
it neglects the reduction of tangential surface velocity towards
the centre of a record, the squashing of the groove.
Tracing loss is intimately connected with the shape of the groove ,
the turns the stylus has to make as it changes direction, the physical
abilility of the stylus shape to sit correctly within the physical shape
of the groove.
This is because the physical size of the turns is aproaching the
physical size of the spherical stylus, the shperical stylus cannot
follow the path taken by the cutter.
For the same signal these turns are tighter at the centre of a record,
Tracing loss thus increases towards the centre of a record.
Or another way of looking at it is 45rpm LP's physically stretch the
shape of a groove and thus have less tracing loss than 33.3 rpm.
Equivalence here is easy, a 20Khz signal on a 45 rpm will show
the same loss as an equivalent 14.8kHz signal on a 33.3 rpm.
The size of the centre of an LP is mainly related to this issue,
and to a lesser extent the tracing angle error of a pivoted arm.
My estimations above are not accurate, 145mm and 65mm are better :
A 20Khz signal at the edge will have the same tracing
loss as an equivalent signal at 9Khz at the centre.
That is the physical shape of the groove will be identical.
A 20khz signal at the centre will have the same groove shape
as an equivalent 44.5Khz signal at the edge of a 12" record.
Tracing loss increases towards the centre of a record - fact.
This applies to parrallel arms as it does to all others.
sreten.
Hi,
Ah...
This is why I asked you to clarify; you somehow gave me the impression it was at its worst at the center, halfway begonning and end of record, so to speak.
So, would you agree with the following statement:
Tracing distortion increases as the stylus approaches the end of the record.
Cheers,
Ah...
This is why I asked you to clarify; you somehow gave me the impression it was at its worst at the center, halfway begonning and end of record, so to speak.
So, would you agree with the following statement:
Tracing distortion increases as the stylus approaches the end of the record.
Cheers,
fdegrove said:Hi,
Ah...
This is why I asked you to clarify; you somehow gave me the impression it was at its worst at the center, halfway begonning and end of record, so to speak.
So, would you agree with the following statement:
Tracing distortion increases as the stylus approaches the end of the record.
Cheers,
No by the centre I meant the end of the record.
And of course I agree with your statement.
http://www.sickoftalk.com/whyvinyl_two.html
Is an interesting link. It covers adding 2dB lift* across an LP
side for a 0.6thou stylus and horrors of horrors - tracing
distortion predistortion at cutting which only suits a 0.6 thou
spherical stylus.
sreten.*rather cryptically IMO does not explain this well, implies
its due to the cutting head, rather than 0.6 stylus playback.
Hi,
Precisely....
Now we all know how perfect CDs are....Don't you???
Some people are going to hate me for this but it's like having a nice juicy steak (music) that you turn in to minced meat (AD conversion at its best) whilst hoping to turn it into that nice steak again. (DA conversion at its best)....
When I hear claim of how perfect digital really is I take notice that these claims usually come from people that neither understand analogue nor digital.
Analogue could and often beat CD hands down and I'm sure very few of our members ever had a chance to experience analogue at it's best...
I still have to hear a single CD that comes close in any of the respects it promised initially.
Add to that that the music/recording industry has been carefully digging its own grave over the past 25 years and you'd understand why I'd rather spend 5000 USD on vinyl than waste it on a CDP....
Just my opinion though,
P.S. Interesting website indeed, Sreten.
Precisely....
Now we all know how perfect CDs are....Don't you???
Some people are going to hate me for this but it's like having a nice juicy steak (music) that you turn in to minced meat (AD conversion at its best) whilst hoping to turn it into that nice steak again. (DA conversion at its best)....
When I hear claim of how perfect digital really is I take notice that these claims usually come from people that neither understand analogue nor digital.
Analogue could and often beat CD hands down and I'm sure very few of our members ever had a chance to experience analogue at it's best...
I still have to hear a single CD that comes close in any of the respects it promised initially.
Add to that that the music/recording industry has been carefully digging its own grave over the past 25 years and you'd understand why I'd rather spend 5000 USD on vinyl than waste it on a CDP....
Just my opinion though,
P.S. Interesting website indeed, Sreten.
What's the value of your records?
I assume that you actually mean that you have FF and VMS bodies. My recollection is that the FF15 has the brash, lively sound to be expected from its price (about £15 in 1982). The difficult bit in a moving magnet cartridge is the stylus. Thus, the cost of a replacement stylus is most of the cost of the cartridge. In other words, an old body has virtually no value and you would be better off going for a more modern cartridge. The VMS20 was quite a nice cartridge, but needed a very low mass arm to work properly. The SME3009SII was ideal.
Vinyl is horribly flawed. Dreadful stuff. It has deliberate monoing to avoid excessive vertical excursions, analogue compression to avoid replay distortion by cruddy cartridges, distortion and frequency response dependent on groove diameter, resonances aplenty (LF and HF), and it depends on scraping a gem along soft plastic. In addition to all that, it attempts to work by precisely measuring dimensions comparable with the wavelength of light.
I have twice as many LPs as CDs.
I think the question you have to ask is, "How much is my record collection worth?" If your record collection is valuable, then you need to preserve it by using a cartridge with a non-damaging (probably modern) stylus. Fortunately, I adopted this approach very early on, so very few of my LPs were wrecked for subsequent playback, but there were still some casualties.
I assume that you actually mean that you have FF and VMS bodies. My recollection is that the FF15 has the brash, lively sound to be expected from its price (about £15 in 1982). The difficult bit in a moving magnet cartridge is the stylus. Thus, the cost of a replacement stylus is most of the cost of the cartridge. In other words, an old body has virtually no value and you would be better off going for a more modern cartridge. The VMS20 was quite a nice cartridge, but needed a very low mass arm to work properly. The SME3009SII was ideal.
Vinyl is horribly flawed. Dreadful stuff. It has deliberate monoing to avoid excessive vertical excursions, analogue compression to avoid replay distortion by cruddy cartridges, distortion and frequency response dependent on groove diameter, resonances aplenty (LF and HF), and it depends on scraping a gem along soft plastic. In addition to all that, it attempts to work by precisely measuring dimensions comparable with the wavelength of light.
I have twice as many LPs as CDs.
I think the question you have to ask is, "How much is my record collection worth?" If your record collection is valuable, then you need to preserve it by using a cartridge with a non-damaging (probably modern) stylus. Fortunately, I adopted this approach very early on, so very few of my LPs were wrecked for subsequent playback, but there were still some casualties.
Hi,
Dammit....
Certainly is....010101
Yep, horrid...Compared to mastertapes and first cuts...sure.
I'm starting to wonder why I enjoy it after all...CD is so much better, or so they keep on telling me....
Maybe I should enjoy that medium but somehow, I don't....What's wrong with me?
I happen to have 6.000 times as much and NOT just because I'm a little older I'd like to think...
I'd hope that my investment is safe and that I'm not going insane,
with a 5.000 USD cart, a 6.000 USD tonearm, a 10.000 USD TT people must think I'm crazy...
Not to mention the record collection I own....
It's got nothing to do with the cash invested but I have a nagging feeling some people don't have a clue about how good vinyl replay can sound.
Oh, not to mention my friend's system, worth twice as much and no CDs in sight..........
He's really feeling bad now...
Yeah...High time I write a book on that too...
Or maybe a book on what enjoyment of music is all about first...
Within a few generations of musical decadence it probably won't be worth the effort anyway ...Screw me ...
Cheers,
Dammit....
Certainly is....010101
Yep, horrid...Compared to mastertapes and first cuts...sure.
I'm starting to wonder why I enjoy it after all...CD is so much better, or so they keep on telling me....
Maybe I should enjoy that medium but somehow, I don't....What's wrong with me?
I happen to have 6.000 times as much and NOT just because I'm a little older I'd like to think...
I'd hope that my investment is safe and that I'm not going insane,
with a 5.000 USD cart, a 6.000 USD tonearm, a 10.000 USD TT people must think I'm crazy...
Not to mention the record collection I own....
It's got nothing to do with the cash invested but I have a nagging feeling some people don't have a clue about how good vinyl replay can sound.
Oh, not to mention my friend's system, worth twice as much and no CDs in sight..........
He's really feeling bad now...
Yeah...High time I write a book on that too...
Or maybe a book on what enjoyment of music is all about first...
Within a few generations of musical decadence it probably won't be worth the effort anyway ...Screw me ...
Cheers,
"The main components of the modern (1971) disc cutting lathe are the turntable, the lathe bed and sled, the pitch/depth control computer, and the cutting head. The Neumann VMS-70 lathe is illustrated in Figs. 12-4 . The tube entering the front of the cutter head provides helium cooling to permit extended operation at high cutting velocities.
The turntable is very heavy in order to reduce speed variations via the flywheel effect. It is driven by a special motor and linkage system to eliminate flutter and rumble from the recording. Three sets of stroboscopic rings on the outer rim calibrate the four switch-selectable speeds of the turntable: 16 2/3, 22 ½, 33 1/3, and 45 rpm. A vacuum suction system secures the recording blanks to the turntable via holes in the turntable surface. The holes can be selectively opened or closed to provide proper suction to hold lacquer discs from 7 to 16 inches in diameter. The suction is introduced through a flexible pipe connected to the hollow center post of the turntable."
Anybody ever used one of these cutting turntables for playback ?.
Eric.
The turntable is very heavy in order to reduce speed variations via the flywheel effect. It is driven by a special motor and linkage system to eliminate flutter and rumble from the recording. Three sets of stroboscopic rings on the outer rim calibrate the four switch-selectable speeds of the turntable: 16 2/3, 22 ½, 33 1/3, and 45 rpm. A vacuum suction system secures the recording blanks to the turntable via holes in the turntable surface. The holes can be selectively opened or closed to provide proper suction to hold lacquer discs from 7 to 16 inches in diameter. The suction is introduced through a flexible pipe connected to the hollow center post of the turntable."
Anybody ever used one of these cutting turntables for playback ?.
Eric.
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