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-   -   Advice on ortofon Stylus' (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/25284-advice-ortofon-stylus.html)

Shoog 3rd January 2004 10:27 PM

Advice on ortofon Stylus'
 
I have a Goldring lenco GL75 with addition spike and squash balls isolation.
I got hold of an ortofon cartridge with the VMS 3 Mk II stylus.
I have recently aquired both a F15 sylus and a FF15E Mk II stylus.
The VM<S 3 Mk II sounds very flat and veiled by comparison with the other two. The F15 sounds lively and quite bright. The FF15E Mk II sounds the most balanced and natural with good cymbal sounds.
The problem I have is that both the F15 and FF15E Mk II are used (the FF15E was described as worn out). They both sound great.
Firstly what should I be looking for in identifying if they are past there sell by date?
What sort of damage will I be doing to my records using old stylus' ?
Lastly how far can I go with this series of stylus's and where can I expect to get my hands on replacements, and what price should I be expecting to pay?

Any advise much appreciated.

Shoog

sreten 4th January 2004 01:14 AM

Quote:

Firstly what should I be looking for in identifying if they are past there sell by date?
If they are simply worn out treble detail suffers, especially
towards the centre of an LP where high frequency tracking
in the most difficult due to the "squashing" of the groove.

If you can't hear mistracking then damage is unlikely.

The VMS3 is a dull sounding cartridge, I had one.

The VMS20E was allegedly the best of this bunch,
but the original is unlikely to suit the Lenco arm.

Having said that, the official Ortofon replacements don't
seem to follow the originals models specifications .

checkout :

https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acat...rtofon_25.html

http://www.ortofon.com/html/body_replacement_styli.html

:) sreten.

fdegrove 7th January 2004 12:33 AM

Hi,

Quote:

especially towards the centre of an LP where high frequency tracking in the most difficult due to the "squashing" of the groove
Do you care to explain this?

Cheers, ;)

sreten 7th January 2004 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,

Do you care to explain this?

Cheers, ;)

?????????

Tracing loss can be defined as the difference between the path
the stylus takes and the path the original cutter took whilst
cutting the record.

The tracing loss of of a spherical stylus is well documented, as
is the advantages of elliptical and more advanced profiles.

Critical to this tracing loss is the physical pitch / angle of the
signal to be traced on the record. It is well known a spherical
stylus shows a treble loss of ~ 2dB at the centre of a record
compared to more advanced stylus shapes.

Tracing loss increases with the frequency and modulation of the signal.

Referring to any signal on a 12" record :

On the outside of the record radius ~ 140mm, at the centre ~ 80mm.
So at the centre of the record the physical pitch will be 43% shorter
for a given signal.

Or in other words a 14KHz signal on the outside has the
same dimensions as a 8kHz signal at the centre, or the
dimensions of a 20Khz signal at the centre are equivalent
to a 35Khz signal at the outside of a record.

If a stylus has lost its profile it shows more tracing loss,
which is worst at the centre of a record, as stated.

Its a pity for classical music which often ends with loudest and
most energetic movements they didn't make LP's play from the
centre outwards to the rim.

:) sreten.

fdegrove 7th January 2004 10:40 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi,

So, if I read you correctly it's not really the squashing of the groove at the middle of the disc but rather mistracking due to misalignment of the cartridge at that position.
Something that occurs with any pivoted arm anyway.

To the best of my knowledge a worn cartridge tip will exhibit a loss of high frequency response whatever it's position on the record depending on groove modulation.
Since groove modulation is depending on content it can occur anywhere on the disc.


Cheers,;)

sreten 8th January 2004 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,

So, if I read you correctly it's not really the squashing of the groove at the middle of the disc but rather mistracking due to misalignment of the cartridge at that position.
Something that occurs with any pivoted arm anyway.

To the best of my knowledge a worn cartridge tip will exhibit a loss of high frequency response whatever it's position on the record depending on groove modulation.
Since groove modulation is depending on content it can occur anywhere on the disc.

Cheers,;)


No you have not read me correctly,
and its not related to the tracking error of a pivoted arm.

Your second paragraph is true but does not tell the whole story,
it neglects the reduction of tangential surface velocity towards
the centre of a record, the squashing of the groove.

Tracing loss is intimately connected with the shape of the groove ,
the turns the stylus has to make as it changes direction, the physical
abilility of the stylus shape to sit correctly within the physical shape
of the groove.

This is because the physical size of the turns is aproaching the
physical size of the spherical stylus, the shperical stylus cannot
follow the path taken by the cutter.


For the same signal these turns are tighter at the centre of a record,
Tracing loss thus increases towards the centre of a record.

Or another way of looking at it is 45rpm LP's physically stretch the
shape of a groove and thus have less tracing loss than 33.3 rpm.

Equivalence here is easy, a 20Khz signal on a 45 rpm will show
the same loss as an equivalent 14.8kHz signal on a 33.3 rpm.

The size of the centre of an LP is mainly related to this issue,
and to a lesser extent the tracing angle error of a pivoted arm.

My estimations above are not accurate, 145mm and 65mm are better :

A 20Khz signal at the edge will have the same tracing
loss as an equivalent signal at 9Khz at the centre.

That is the physical shape of the groove will be identical.

A 20khz signal at the centre will have the same groove shape
as an equivalent 44.5Khz signal at the edge of a 12" record.

Tracing loss increases towards the centre of a record - fact.
This applies to parrallel arms as it does to all others.

:) sreten.

fdegrove 8th January 2004 01:51 PM

Hi,

Quote:

Tracing loss increases towards the centre of a record - fact.
Ah...
This is why I asked you to clarify; you somehow gave me the impression it was at its worst at the center, halfway begonning and end of record, so to speak.

So, would you agree with the following statement:

Tracing distortion increases as the stylus approaches the end of the record.

Cheers,;)

sreten 8th January 2004 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,



Ah...
This is why I asked you to clarify; you somehow gave me the impression it was at its worst at the center, halfway begonning and end of record, so to speak.

So, would you agree with the following statement:

Tracing distortion increases as the stylus approaches the end of the record.

Cheers,;)

No by the centre I meant the end of the record.

And of course I agree with your statement.

http://www.sickoftalk.com/whyvinyl_two.html

Is an interesting link. It covers adding 2dB lift* across an LP
side for a 0.6thou stylus and horrors of horrors - tracing
distortion predistortion at cutting which only suits a 0.6 thou
spherical stylus.

:) sreten.

*rather cryptically IMO does not explain this well, implies
its due to the cutting head, rather than 0.6 stylus playback.

mrfeedback 8th January 2004 05:28 PM

Noise, Crackle AND Tone Control.......
 
So vinyl has an inbuilt tone control that slowly droops the highs by ~2dB during the 20 minutes it takes to play a record side ?.
I think I'll stay with my CDP thanks.

Eric.

sreten 8th January 2004 10:49 PM

Re: Noise, Crackle AND Tone Control.......
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mrfeedback
So vinyl has an inbuilt tone control that slowly droops the highs by ~2dB during the 20 minutes it takes to play a record side ?.
I think I'll stay with my CDP thanks.

Eric.

Only when played with a 0.6 spherical stylus.

:) sreten.


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