Ortofon VMS20/30 - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Source & Line > Analogue Source

Analogue Source Turntables, Tonearms, Cartridges, Phono Stages, Tuners, Tape Recorders, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 23rd August 2013, 09:27 AM   #11
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Hi,

An original VMS30 stylus is a nude fine line extended contact
tip and can last a very long time tracking at about 1.25g.
It suits a Dual very well.

The VMS20E is nude elliptical, FF15E bushed elliptical.

"Upgrading" will be an expensive business for the same sort of stylus quality.
A replacement genuine VMS20E stylus is 140 Euros from William Thakkar.

rgds, sreten.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2013, 10:11 AM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
I just looked on eBay . OM 10 was an optimum cartridge for a 505 . I feel is won swings and roundabouts in a Dual over a VMS 20 E II . I dare say the Dual was the first time I saw it as a standard fit cartridge . Ortofon would be mad not to optimize it for the market leader . Memory says the 505 and VMS 20E were friends but not lovers . Might just be VTA as OM is taller ? VMS 20E was great in either Rega type ( Rega - Acos Lustre or Rega's own ) . Suits any SME or Hadcock . SME 3 is excellent with it .

At the prices I saw for new OM 10 is great .

M20FL seems to be a VMS30 . To my ears not , M20FL is superb . I slightly prefer VMS 20 and FF 15E to VMS 30 ( VTA no doubt ) . F15 E was not my cup of tea . VMS 5 was fun and very OK .

Some typo's in previous as time was running out .

Last edited by nigel pearson; 23rd August 2013 at 10:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2013, 07:27 PM   #13
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Hi,

The OM10 did and still does suit the original budget 505.

But it is not optimal for later more expensive versions,
and there is no point changing the VMS30 if it works.

rgds, sreten.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2013, 08:58 AM   #14
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
My major criticism of OM 10 was a slight blandness which I attribute to the range , VMS30 also alas ( VTA ? ) . To be frank I felt 20 outperformed 30 for most typical turntables . This was often true in hi fi that a quirk of design makes a cheaper thing better . As far as I know no Dual arm of any generation was ever bettered by typical cartridges , mass being the only question . Certainly the looks of the latter were more in tune with " opinion " . The 12 series idler driven Dual are nice machines . Their arms are excellent . 30 better than OM10 ? It is . I will say one thing . Technics SP 10 , SME 3 , OM10 , you would have no idea . Like your family car was winning a Grand Prix . Thing is I doubt SME 3 is much better than the Dual arm .

The best example of this was cartridge fixing . People would go to any lengths to do it up tight . Two Australian brothers insisted this was wrong and used Blutak . Whilst having fears for it sticking permanently I think it is better .Their PU's were some of the best of the day ( Garrot ) .The screws must be non magnetic . Alignment . People show me fancy alignment gauges . I use them and find they were 0.5 mm out . No good having a tool you can not use . I still think 2 zero's at 63.5 and 119 mm is best ( Percy Wilson of 1920's ) . I have made these out of paper and done 90 degrees by eye ( we are almost like perfect pitch for doing that ) . Used a schools ruler and got it 100 % right as far as our eyes can tell ( eyes being the problem ) . Having it correct get bias or anti skating right . If in doubt set it 0.25 g below what the turntable says . VTA , if in doubt have the arm slightly lower at the back ( 2 degrees perhaps ) . Not a great solution but better than nothing . Goldring needs slight backwards slope ( 1042 , nice device ) . They used a slightly odd cantilever length to get better overall performance . As people do VTA they thought it will get checked . Mr Van den Hull says he agrees with non of that . Like me he listens to classical and might have different priorities . VTA varies as the 15 degree ideal for cutting moved to 20 that is 5 was added , 15 is an approximation to requirements , spring back etc , etc . Hence V15 , VMS 20 . What one should do is set for good 1970 pressings . Then tweak playing weight for ones that seem edgy ( splitty ) .

The arm of the Dual is unusual ( later , cheaper ones perhaps not ) . It would offer the same playing down force on the Moon or Earth . An SME would be 1/6 th . You can set the dial weight to zero then add weight as you would an SME . This changes the arm mathematics a bit and sound . Try if you like . You will need a stylus balance to set it ( Shure is excellent and easy to use ) . This quirk allow the arm to ride warps better and at a great angle off of horizontal . The weight is set by a spring if as Dual intend ( like a watch spring ) . Rega also if the RB 300 ( not 250 ) . The spring works the other way on Rega to lift the arm up . Fully on ( 3 g ) is zero spring force . Not the same thing and not the same reasoning . Some say both are better without springs .

I sold more 505 in my life than most people ( 1000 + at a guess ) . I was involved with Dual in Farnell days . I think I might have been the one who suggested 505 in about 1977 ? I bought at a remarkable price a CS510 for my father which he still has . I sold a pile of them at 100 inc M95ED ( 50 off ) . When they ran out I said what a shame and said if only they could do some without all the fancy machining . Tom Harding ( ? ) said it wasn't such a daft idea see what German says . Farnell were rewarded by loosing distribution . Peter Johnson took over ( lovely guy , looked like a Viking ) , who also did Empire . I was rewarded by a trip to the factory which my boss took . He spoke German was the excuse . I was delighted as he loved every minute . When in his last days my brother put him up a satellite dish to get German TV . 1930's films that I would have thought censored often played . He spoke 21 languages and 7 fluently . Not so sure as an engineer I ever saw him finish anything . He called my job technical rep . Mostly I fixed stuff and did a bit of Video . He did the translation work FOC for Zeta becomes JET . He had sufficient understanding and the language skills . Surprisingly he felt the Germans did not understand substitutes of English and assumed the UK far behind with Zeta if looking at the US version . If not I suspect JET might not have existed at Harwell . It now has moved on to France . At the time I was bored to tears by JET . We sold them some very high speed video gear , that started it . Why I loved Dual was simply a love of engineering . Made down to a price . Perpetum Ebner was said to be a dispute between the brothers of Dual . PE was the more EMT style product . Wish I had sold PE .

If 505 would be truly exciting it would have VTA . 704 did , so it was in the parts bin . Get this . VTA whilst playing ! Sorry USA you were not first . If doing archive work it would be practical to do it for each . What a shame no 78 on 704 . There was a better 704 ( 721 ? ) , one day on eBay perhaps ? Politically you couldn't sell direct drives then . Shame as the Dual DD was good .
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2013, 11:57 AM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ulverston in Cumbria
Had the styli checked over at Audio Origami. Got some nice photos as well. The 30 has plenty of life left in it and the 20E looks brand new. This is good news as I wanted to use the 20E, as it appears to give a better LTA in the Dual arm when bolted directly to the headshell. Way ahead sorted.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2013, 03:05 PM   #16
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ulverston in Cumbria
Sorry, I meant VTA, not LTA. Must have been thinking about tennis!
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2013, 11:35 PM   #17
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Hi,

FWIW the OM10 (a later version of the FF15E) bushed tipped elliptical
suited the budget versions of the Dual 505 well. The VMS20E and
OM20 (nude tipped ellipticals) are less cost effective in budget
505's, but better cartridges, and suit more expensive Duals well.

The VMS20E does not match the original Rega R200 arm well at all.

The nude FL (fine line) versions (VMS30 and OM30) suffered (and still do)
from a simple problem, new they sound no better than the new nude elliptical.
(Often slightly worse for various reasons in a new versus new comparison.)
However the tips last much longer and maintain better performance
over the effective life of the stylus, and are more cost effective.

rgds, sreten.

The Ortofon 510, 520 and 530 are my favourite versions.

My Ortofon MC15 Super Mk II with a FL stylus is still going strong
after many years bought for the princely sum of 86 exchange
many moons ago, a replacement would be 300+.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 16th September 2013 at 11:51 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2013, 08:20 AM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
I might have sold 500 x RB200 VMS 20 combo's ( 1000 more likely ) . On paper it doesn't work . In real life it is excellent .

Rega ( Roy Gandy ) said the supposed resonant frequency of an arm is set too high in common theory . If above 6 Hz and preferably 8Hz all is well . 12 Hz as pontificated is too high .

The original Shure V 15 required an arm of -5 g mass to work to accepted mathematical models . Like the bumble bee it couldn't work . The formula is Fo = 1/ 2Pi root ( MC ) . The Shure sold in many 1000's and did fly very well .

Conversely I was given a Schroeder carbon-fibre arm to try . I strongly disliked it . It brought my anti carbon-fibre prejudice into my thinking . The Schroeder has such a reputation as to make me unwilling to leave it there . I simply added mass to the arm ( 6 g at a guess ) . The sound was transformed , it had bass . I have a Schroeder wooden arm as a result . I know in my heart the mass is what I have over the carbon fibre . Naturally with suspended decks an ideal resonance might hit the spring frequency . This brings into question spring suspensions . Garrard users do it with squash balls .
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2013, 08:45 AM   #19
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
VMS 30 was a sad case . Then M20Fl was streets better . If adding alinement problems of a fine-line it should be worth it in the final sound . To my ears VMS 20 E 2 was simply better . Ortofon played with the design a number of times . Why they didn't uses M20FL instead I will never know . If you have an M20FL you have one of the best . FF 15 E was better than VMS 30 in things I tried . I must admit an early set back doesn't inspire one to try . Linn Basik LVII arm had VTA adjust . Maybe that would work better . It will involve a day of adjustments . Ortofon had a test record to do it . House of the rising Sun was favourite with voice and guitar . Adjust to have nice sibilance on voice with good bass on the guitar to put it simply . +/- 5 degrees off of level is common . Ellipticals are less fussy . Old records need 5 degrees less VTA ( V15 refers to that , VMS 20 to the revised standard , vinyl spring-back is the technical term , 20 refers to + 5 degrees cutting angle , said to reduce IM distortion I think ) . All my now cartridges are FL so it is possible to live with this . VTA is a necessity of FL .
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2013, 12:01 PM   #20
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Hi,

It depends on what deck you mount a cartridge with a compliance
nominally too high for the arm mass as to the result you will get.

Solid plinth designs can handle it better than suspended subchassis.
Both don't like wobbly furniture stands, wall mounting is good for
both if a solid floor is not available.

YMMV using a high compliance cartridge in a heavy arm. It works
but handling is a bit sqiffy compared to a lower compliance.

rgds, sreten.

Many PL12D's were sold with the ubquitous Shure M75ED
and ended up with the arm frequency too near the base
spring frequency, compromising the handling quite a lot.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 17th September 2013 at 12:05 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted: 30-0-30 500VA transformer x 2 (UK/EU) firestorm Swap Meet 0 12th January 2011 01:30 PM
Premier Speaker Stands ... by Paradigm -- model: S-30 (30"tall) Livin Swap Meet 10 3rd February 2009 02:08 PM
Q: Zen-lite with -30~+30 voltage rail? Peter Huang Pass Labs 2 7th August 2007 11:42 AM
[Newbie] Using 50V cap with 30-0-30. safe? nina Chip Amps 19 31st August 2005 05:34 PM
2 x 500VA 30-0-30 Toroidal Power Transformers WALTER BURKHARD Swap Meet 4 30th July 2005 01:01 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:49 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2