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Old 19th August 2013, 03:04 AM   #1
Zene is offline Zene  United States
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Default Quest for long tonearm.

Hi ... Nothing new here, even back to my first, the Mantis cira 1978 if any of you are old enough to remember.
I'm still after long tonearms, but they are heavy. There is no getting around that, making the traditional mass/compliance/effective length formula worthless.
So back to basics. Where does the vibration of a tonearm come from? I'm talking about the range from subsonic thorough 20hz which is the lower limit for most recordings.

I should have added: do all the subsonic vibrations (100%) come from record warp?

Thanks, Zene

Last edited by Zene; 22nd August 2013 at 01:58 AM. Reason: Claification
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Old 30th September 2013, 05:10 AM   #2
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Default Long Tone Arm

Hi, Depends what you call a long tone arm. TemaadAudio do 12 inch arms as standard and like Moech you can get an arm with differing, in this case 6; 8 or 11 gram effective mass. Unlike Moaech one will not cost an arm and a leg. They will also produce to special order longer arms if you wish
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Old 30th September 2013, 06:08 AM   #3
Zene is offline Zene  United States
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tabarddn ... I almost forgot I asked. Tonearm will be DIY and 19" effective length, meaning again that I cannot even come close to ideal eff mass. My plan was to make the platform absolutely non-vibrating which would mean effective mass would no longer be of importance unless the subsonic vibrations were from record warp. Then it's back to the slide rule.

Zene
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Old 30th September 2013, 11:33 PM   #4
AVWERK is offline AVWERK  United States
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A long "beam" will tend to vibrate much more than any shorter stiffer arm. Your effective mass increases and trying to get a lower mass along with all thats required to keep it as dead as possible just increases the mass even more.
And endless merry go round along with huge VTA adjustments to change even 1 degree at the diamond.

Very low compliance MC,s only mate with high effective mass well and also generate huge vibrations that make matters worse and harder to control.

Seems like your increasing your chances for other issues to pop up, just to decrease tracking error.
It doesn,t mean you can,t be successful, as long you consider all perameters that will be included

Regards
David

Last edited by AVWERK; 30th September 2013 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Add
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Old 1st October 2013, 12:49 AM   #5
Zene is offline Zene  United States
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Avwerk ... Good warnings.
I will build two +.
Didn't think of KISS.

Zene
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Old 1st October 2013, 12:18 PM   #6
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Default I took the bate

Well, I've been off for the last few days with a bad ear infection. (p/Off no music) Started the weekend trying to find out a little more about Tone-arm effective mass and cartridge compliance and finished today by 90% building (ear still sore but feel a bit better today, just in case the boss is reading!!) a 19inch tone arm. See photos below.
A little lucky here as I have just upgraded my Temaad Wizard kit 2 Arm to their Warlock SL arm. (they actually do an exchange service but i decided to keep the parts as I had an hankering to have 2 arms on my setup.
So using the Centre Wizard Arm Cap and arm and counter balance shafts I had the basis of an arm at my fingertips. Come in broken fishing Rod, little bit of trial and error and HAY PRESTO, a 19 inch arm. Offered it up to my table and boy is it long, but figure i could fit it at the back by moving my stand alone motor unit. I have done some measurement and run some figures through the Vinyl Engine site and it has a Effective mass of 18 grams. This makes it ideal for the Denon 103, giving a resonant frequency with that cart of about 10.
So what does it sound like, don't know yet as I need to find, acquire a tone arm long enough to accommodate this length, I have a 400mm wire some where but cannot find it at present. Actually i have a metre of VDH wire coming so that could be interesting combination. Will keep you posted
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Old 1st October 2013, 12:58 PM   #7
Zene is offline Zene  United States
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tab (If I may shorten with your permission) ... Had ear infection as a kid. I feel your pain.
Nice job and damn fast. I've piddled around for over a year now.
My main idea using long which meant heavy was based on old crabby Romy.

GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Say ?no? to the light tonearms.

I had build the old Mantis back in the 70's and was pretty happy although balsa didn't last long.
Keep me posted if you will on how it sounds.
Zene
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Old 2nd October 2013, 09:53 AM   #8
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Default Found the Wire

Hi, found the 400mm interconnect wire I throught I had. A little bulky but should do. However unfortunetly will need to shorten the are to an 18 inch (sorry) as the wire will not be long enough, Still 18 inches will have the advantage of reducing the effective mass slightly and increasing stiffness. I expect maybe to get it wired and playing before the weekend, (P.S ear is much better today)
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Old 2nd October 2013, 10:52 AM   #9
Zene is offline Zene  United States
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Good news. You do know you will need that ear.
Zene
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Old 5th October 2013, 11:16 PM   #10
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Default Fantastic then "UH" problem

Well first let me say to ********, thank you Thank You, THANK YOU for arousing my curiosity up enough to undertake this project and to TemaadAudio for the parts that made it so easy to do it.
So I had to make the arm 18inches to allow me to use the 400mm loom I had at hand, even at 400mm it only was just long enough. Anyway fitted the loom and connected it all up on Thursday evening, hit the web and download and printed a suitable alignment sheet, thanks Conrad Hoffman for your easy to use Alignment template.
Friday – I actually hooked the Tone Arm wires up to my CD player and continuously played the CD player to allow the loom to burn in.
Saturday – Wife went out shopping, I politely declined my invitation to go with her!!
1st LP, Side 4 of Chess the Musical. Always liked this side because of the interplay of the voices. Well F*** I have never heard such layering before, truly a big step up from my earlier set-up
2nd LP, Alpine Sym by R. Strauss. Cob smacked, got spine chills down my back at the beginning of this piece. I have never, never had that sensation a the beginning of a piece, at the end yes but rarely but never NEVER at a beginning. I have built a monster upgrade. Here I could hear serious orchestral layering, solid base and the string were sublime.
3rd LP, pet Shop boys, Actually. Amazing speed and base attack again, layering like I have never heard before and base to die for.
4st LP, Cat Stevens Foreigner Suite ---Double F***----. The speed, the dynamics the base, where did this all come from. Everything else in my system is the same as it was before, but I am getting more, More, MORE than I had every encountered before in one single component change.
5th LP-Stravinsky – 6 Orch Pieces conducted by Stravinsky. Whow so fast, instrumental layering, base pin point instrument positioning. Everyone should have this LP in their collection. But now it is so much more to this LP it is like as they say, “If I was actually there!!”
6th LP- Bee Gees greatest Hits 1; Ah the bubble has burst. I know this LP so well, it has a great base line all the way through but NOW, NO, No it has over-bloated booming base. (I could cry, something is very wrong and I need to investigate further)
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