Garrard 60 MkII good or not?

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Hi,

It really depends on what your quality expectations are and its condition.

As an autostacker, some would use for singles, others for 78's.

Its really not suitable for your main turntable, lots of other better options.

rgds, sreten.
 
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Hi,

Again its all relative. Cheap AV system with a phono input and cheap
records from charity shop why not ? Decent records and a decent
system its not really up to the job IMO, but it will be OK.

Its much better for a hifi fan as a 78 player, and if its in great
condition even more so for that purpose for an audiophile.

Its probably not that bad, but in very good condition its
worth a lot more to the particular than the average man.

rgds, sreten.
 
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try gutting it

A Lab 60 (I'm assuming that's what you have) is quite nice once you remove all of the changer/stacker hardware. Get rid of the tonearm as well. Something similar to try is the old Dual 10XX or 12XX series (again gutted).

Once all the mechanical stuff is removed, the major source for poor sound is removed (springs, excessive mechanical bits, etc.).

I've converted a few of the Duals and they are very good once stripped. I'm working on a Lab 60 as proof of concept and have a Lab 80 that will get converted once I get a feel for what is going on with the '80.
 
Definitely salvage the M97 cartridge. I have one, era IV, love it, and probably have played thousands of sides with it over the 33 years I've owned it. No surface damage @ 1.5 g.
I noticed as a kid in 1966, the Gerrards the city library had, rumbled. I don't know what model. My best friend had a Gerrard he bought in 1968, it rumbled. He gave it to me, still does. I bought a 1961 build AR turntable in 1970 with my tube amp. It didn't rumble, but bounced on the record when I walked across the floor. Nor did it shut itself off or lift the tonearm. I put a Grado FTE cartridge on it in 1972? it sounded pretty good at 1.5 g. I'm now using a $69 BIC 940 changer I got on closeout about 1979, with the M97. It doesn't rumble or have any bad habits except I had to put a washer under one side of the cartridge to get it square to the record. The BIC has a changer and auto shutoff, no problem. I sold off my AR turntable in 1981, and never looked back. So much for legends.
 
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distort on right chassel...""SSsssss...."

A couple of things:
  • as indianajoe points out Garrardsrumble (well most idlers do...)
  • suspended decks often don't isolate well from foorfalls
  • using a shim of some sort can help with azimuth of a carttridge

If your records are in good shape there should be no sibilance. Is the stylus clean? The records? Look at the idler wheel, take it off of its spindle, clean it and relube the bushing, then re-install.

The only way to reduce the rumble AFAIK, is to remove as much mechanical stuff as possible. The Shure M97x or a variant is still available and new stylus should still be available for yours. Also consider a better constructed plinth.
 
Hi,

If it is in "as new" condition stripping it is a bad idea, somebody
will want it in original condition. The rumble (if it does) is due
to the main bearing arrangement around the centre spindle.
Less of a problem with mono records and mono wired cartridge.

Sibilance may mean the stylus is worn out, or defective,
or not properly aligned, incorrect tracking force or bias etc.

rgds, sreten.
 
"a bad idea..."

sreten: as always we end up in similar threads and more often than not on "opposite" sides,(but actually agree more than it seems).

sco1t: If the Lab60 (or A60 or whatever they called it in Europe) is in great shape, and cheap enough buy and use it if you get a new stylus. Set the cartridge up correctly and just buy a new stylus (still available from Shure IIRC). Either learn how to set a turntable up (you'll need something to measure the tracking force, and a alignment protractor, and a small thin mirror to start, then a test record), or pay to have somebody do it for you. The worst case is that you do no further harm to any records you play on it, and if you come across something that is less desirable (like a Dual), you can always hack that up and make it into a fully manual table. Then sell/give away the '60.

In gutting changers I have found the most significant improvement to be due to a reduction of resonance of the mechanical "bits". Rather than use a spring for anything, convert all springs to a weight and pulley scheme. Then there are no springs to further resonate (except the suspension of the Garrard). I mount converted changers firmly to a new plinth with no ill effects. There is little you can do about the bearings though, other than get a few new balls and fit as many as possible into the loose bearings as will fit. Just make sure that there is a least room for 1 of the ball bearings in the loose bearing pack (for example if 7 bearings fit snugly, or just barely doesn't fit, then leave 6 bearings well packed with good grease, and remove 1. Put the platter on and give it a spin by hand , it should be much quieter. The grease I use is no longer produced, but any good grease will do, even if it seem too heavy. The Lab series of motors are very robust and posses much torque and should be able to overcome a significant amount of drag. Do not use a sealed bearing unless doing a bunch of machining to remove the integral cone of the bearing from the platter.
 
Hi,

The thing is the Lab 60 is not a great motor unit and
the arm is probably the best bit of package. I'd be all
for stripping it if the end result is desirable, it isn't IMO.

Gutting, replinthing, new arm etc is not worth it,
considering someone will like it as very original.

The Lab 80 is an entirely different kettle of fish.

rgds, sreten.

Nanook:

No problems arguing the toss with someone, here there is
no good halfway house at all, so opinion will be divided.

My opinion is it can't be turned into a good main turntable
(sensibly) and in good condition its an ideal enthusiasts
second turntable for 78's, 45's, mono and the like.

Not all idlers are suitable for a complete makeover.
 
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Hi guys, a few further thoughs.

All, please make no mistake I am not here to stir things up. I have a LAB 60 I am working on and have stripped it.

I use bold type to indicate a response to a particular poster, so I hope no one takes that as a "shout" indicator or similar.

sreten: okay, given a choice to save a good LAB 60 (or A 60) or not, I think it should be saved. Thing is that over here (Canada) finding a good one is tough. If most we find are junk then the effort is worth it, especially with terribly high prices being asked for otherwise unloved turntables.

All:While sreten is correct that a good LAB 60 or similar can make a good 2nd turntable, if it's botched at all, it can make a great single play. I've found that any mechanical bits (all the changer mechanicals andsprings), at least in my personal experience.

It is difficult to find good idler types like Lenco/Bogen or Thorens (belt/hybrid) at reasonable prices. In direct telephone conversations with Jean Nantais (of Lenco rebuild and modification fame), he suggested that his recommend for the use of Lencos was what he ended up with, not that it was the best, but was good (particularly the main bearing) and easily modified. He had stated directly to me that he had started with a Mirachord (30 IIRC), and that was a good table when modified. He had suggested to me that even a modest idler tweaked appropriately could see off most new tables that retail in the USD$2000 range (€1,520). This misunderstanding has created a worldwide rise in asking prices for the Lencos. I'm sure if he chose to recommend Duals or whatever other idler wheel driven table brand, the same price inflation would occur. Shills who seek out exorbitant prices for what some classified as "junk" a few weeks or months ago would pop up all over the the Internet, such as it is.

sco1t:Take the above with a grain of salt, and all of my comments. Perhaps I'm too focused on what I have available to me.

OK, so regarding cheap idlers that do respond well, the Dual 10XX and 12XX changers respond well. The Garrarda are better made, but the Dual has one feature that I really like: the fine speed adjustment. It is very hand. That and some prices are still okay in North America. But they are climbing at a fairly quick rate. This is why I am seeking a scratch built idler, and I have designed a few. Of course sticking with what I feel are good design principles some of the features required are as follows:
  • over specified AC induction motor
  • simple drive system, most probably rim drive
  • hammer-simple plinth
  • no springs whatsoever
  • gravity based tensioning devices
  • some sort of electronic means to control speed if required
  • an appropriately sized and contoured platter with appropriate density and total mass

There are several that could be copied, but I prefer an original design. Yes the Lencos can be copied, but if using Lenco specific parts , they will be quite expensive. The same can be said of the Thorens, some of the Rek-o-cuts (or similar broadcast types like the very desirable and expensive EMT turntables) or virtually any Reasonable quality existing idler wheel types out there.

I've stated elsewhere that maybe even a idler retro-fit kit could be built using an existing belt drive turntable to be the basis for the retro-fit. I'll leave it at that for now.
 
Hi,

I'll still maintain that in the UK the LAB 60 is more wanted to more
people in great original good condition, and you can find a better
idler motor unit as a basis for a higher quality turntable rebuild.

Not that the OP has indicated he has the skill or interest for this.

I've seen some pretty nice used Duals £100 to £150 including
nice (and new very expensive) cartridges that are a far
simpler good quality starting point for an LP collection.

rgds, sreten.

I've rebuilt (sometimes radically) far more turntables that most
(claim) in my younger days, and consequently have ended up
with some pretty hard nosed practical opinions on the matter.
 
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sreten, I don't think we are disagreeing...

...and thus I made sure to specify that in my circumstance gutting idler changers makes some sens. I your (in the UK) it most likely doesn't. I too have a few hard-nosed opinions as well, and as per usual I suspect we share many of the same thoughts regarding turntables and their construction.
 
Been There...Done That...Sounds Great!
There is No Rumble at All using a Detached ToneArm...
Stews Arm, for that Matter....Thanks Stew...
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Hey sled...

...looks good. Which table did you use for the basis? Sorry haven't been keeping up on everything... I lost all email contacts, and previous email notifications, but my iMac is finally working (semi) normally.

How does it sound? Did you use Kynar?
 
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