Folks, I need your help...
I have recently got seriously into stereo tuners since I found a Luxman TD-377 in good condition (pic attached) and cheap in a 2nd-hand shop: 10 euros. I thought why not? It's a really well-build tuner, has that RDS thing you can read what's playing, has 25khz tuning steps, etc... Once at home, I hooked it to the amplifier and I was astonished by the sound. Then I discovered several FM stations here in the Netherlands airing nice music...
Ok, other than listening CDs and music stream from the Web via an USB D/A audio adapter into the Integrated, now I'm also enjoying FM radio frequencies. Now, the thing is that I found another nice looking tuner for the same price in another 2nd-hand store. The Sansui TU-317. Having knowing that Sansui never did crappy (now vintage) gear, I decided to buy the other tuner, so I now have one digital tuning (Luxman) and one analogue. I want to keep both machines. I'm not a tuner expert but I think the price paid for them was good.
So my questions are:
1. does it worth to change some old components (caps, etc) from the vintage Sansui?
2. changing those few components will affect the so called (infamous) alignment?
3. do digital synthesized tuners suffer misalignment too?
4. any special with regard for antennas or cables?
I'm asking you guys here because there is a lot of confusion over some other forums.
Thanks and regards.
I have recently got seriously into stereo tuners since I found a Luxman TD-377 in good condition (pic attached) and cheap in a 2nd-hand shop: 10 euros. I thought why not? It's a really well-build tuner, has that RDS thing you can read what's playing, has 25khz tuning steps, etc... Once at home, I hooked it to the amplifier and I was astonished by the sound. Then I discovered several FM stations here in the Netherlands airing nice music...
Ok, other than listening CDs and music stream from the Web via an USB D/A audio adapter into the Integrated, now I'm also enjoying FM radio frequencies. Now, the thing is that I found another nice looking tuner for the same price in another 2nd-hand store. The Sansui TU-317. Having knowing that Sansui never did crappy (now vintage) gear, I decided to buy the other tuner, so I now have one digital tuning (Luxman) and one analogue. I want to keep both machines. I'm not a tuner expert but I think the price paid for them was good.
So my questions are:
1. does it worth to change some old components (caps, etc) from the vintage Sansui?
2. changing those few components will affect the so called (infamous) alignment?
3. do digital synthesized tuners suffer misalignment too?
4. any special with regard for antennas or cables?
I'm asking you guys here because there is a lot of confusion over some other forums.
Thanks and regards.
Attachments
Unless you know about RF circuitry, don't touch the RF/IF circuitry. It is much easier to mess it up than to fix it, unless you have the necessary knowledge and test equipment.
Personally, I only change components to do a repair. However, if you confine yourself to the audio end of the circuit you won't do much harm and you may do some good.
Digital synthesized tuners can suffer misalignment in a similar way to conventional tuners. The synthesizer replaces the local oscillator, but the RF circuits still need to be aligned.
On audio forums you will read some sense and some nonsense about audio. When it comes to RF, you are more likely to read nonsense on an audio forum although there are people on here who know what they are talking about. What do you want to know about antennas and cables?
Personally, I only change components to do a repair. However, if you confine yourself to the audio end of the circuit you won't do much harm and you may do some good.
Digital synthesized tuners can suffer misalignment in a similar way to conventional tuners. The synthesizer replaces the local oscillator, but the RF circuits still need to be aligned.
On audio forums you will read some sense and some nonsense about audio. When it comes to RF, you are more likely to read nonsense on an audio forum although there are people on here who know what they are talking about. What do you want to know about antennas and cables?
Unless you have a network analyzer, spectrum analyzer and FET probes don't touch the RF part. Messing it up is easy and realigning it next to impossible!
Antennae and RF cables come in a lot of flavors, but for FM reception (87.5 - 108MHz band) usually a 1/4 wave whip or a dipole is all you need. If you want to receive stations that are very weak (RF power that is) look at -for example- Yagi's. These "amplify" the RF signal but are directional. For RF cable use a 75Ohm cable (same stuff as used for TV) things to look for are damping/meter (as low as possible) and screening (as high as possible).
Antennae and RF cables come in a lot of flavors, but for FM reception (87.5 - 108MHz band) usually a 1/4 wave whip or a dipole is all you need. If you want to receive stations that are very weak (RF power that is) look at -for example- Yagi's. These "amplify" the RF signal but are directional. For RF cable use a 75Ohm cable (same stuff as used for TV) things to look for are damping/meter (as low as possible) and screening (as high as possible).
Thank you guys for the tips!
Indeed I don't have the knowledge to touch inside tuners, I even don't know which parts I could touch or some other I shouldn't. But I'm really falling in love with these radio machines, specially the analogue one. Other than cool, it looked the company build it with special care and to last, differently from most of today stuff, as we know the story.
I know this Sansui model might not worth to mess up and there's a lot of other much better vintage tuners around, but curiosity to see improvements in such a simple and nice piece of gear is what I trying to understand. The newer digital synth Luxman sounds a bit more full, richer and has less "hisses" than the older analogue Sansui. So I don't know if I'm listening to a misaligned tuner (Sansui) that could deliver a much better sound. An experienced DXer knows where's is the weak part to adjust, improve or replace.
It would be really nice to have a cool vintage tuner sounding "like new", what most people do when they get old Sansuis, Pioneers or Kenwoods integrated amps. Since we have here in Holland a handful of good FM stations I can put all my CDs back to the cabinet for a while and just enjoy the shuffle music and discover new stuff from the stations.
I'm not going to touch it if you guys don't recommend, unless I could find some expert around the Amsterdam area able and willing to do so.
Mark.Clappers, do you know any good tuner expert in the Netherlands?
Thanks again for the reply and regards,
Karl.
About antenna and cable: is it enough to have some 5m of the 75 ohms around or is it recommended to to have it to a proper antenna?
Few more important questions:
When around the tuners start to be misaligned and why?
What causes misalignment? Aging components or/and hurting the gear?
Few more important questions:
When around the tuners start to be misaligned and why?
What causes misalignment? Aging components or/and hurting the gear?
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Alignment and most fault tracing does not need analyzers, just a sig gen and DMM and the knowledge of how to use them.Mark.Clappers said:
Yes. Two main methods to upset the alignment is to drop the item (or just general rough handling over a period of time) or to 'tighten up all the loose screws' - yes, people really do that then wonder why their radio has stopped working! (The 'loose screws' being trimmer capacitors or adjustable coil cores.)Karl vd Berg said:
Hi All,
DF96, in general you are right but if you wat to "tune" the circuit you should at least be able to look at the RF and IF stages without influencing them to much, hence the FET probe. Trust me on this one, I have 8 years experience with TV frontends both digital and analogue combined with DRX39yxZ series of demods for ATV,FM,DVB-T/C,8VSB and ISDB-T (MOPLL and silicon tuner based combined with SAW's and LC bandpass filters for the IF stage & single conversion tuners) and learned it the hard way
You should defenitly use a proper antenna, this can be as simple as a wire 1/4 wavelenght or as complicated as a Yagi. What suites your needs best depends on your receiving conditions.
If you want to learn more about your tuners google "superheterodyne" and be prepared to spend some time reading
I can't help you with a tuner expert in the Netherlands, the people I work with are not into DIY audio..
DF96, in general you are right but if you wat to "tune" the circuit you should at least be able to look at the RF and IF stages without influencing them to much, hence the FET probe. Trust me on this one, I have 8 years experience with TV frontends both digital and analogue combined with DRX39yxZ series of demods for ATV,FM,DVB-T/C,8VSB and ISDB-T (MOPLL and silicon tuner based combined with SAW's and LC bandpass filters for the IF stage & single conversion tuners) and learned it the hard way
You should defenitly use a proper antenna, this can be as simple as a wire 1/4 wavelenght or as complicated as a Yagi. What suites your needs best depends on your receiving conditions.
If you want to learn more about your tuners google "superheterodyne" and be prepared to spend some time reading
I can't help you with a tuner expert in the Netherlands, the people I work with are not into DIY audio..
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Choose a tuner based on Silicon Labs Si473x series or the newer Si4770, no adjustments necessary, nothing to drift or age. I have a Si4735 running, it works quite well, I like the RDBS information, I get to learn who are the artists etc.
I am in the process of making a Si4770, so will be able to compare the performance.
Some really nice features all done in a DSP. They have brought this part out to compete with the high end tuners, we shall see. It is a $9.00 part = amazing really
How many people actually have FET probes, >350 MHz BW DSO's, FM mpx SG's? = Very few, I do, but it is of no help to Karl, in this case, wish I could help you out, sorry
Rick
I am in the process of making a Si4770, so will be able to compare the performance.
Some really nice features all done in a DSP. They have brought this part out to compete with the high end tuners, we shall see. It is a $9.00 part = amazing really
How many people actually have FET probes, >350 MHz BW DSO's, FM mpx SG's? = Very few, I do, but it is of no help to Karl, in this case, wish I could help you out, sorry
Rick
Karl,
Spend some time here:-
Tuner Information Center - Vintage Stereo Tuners
Loads of info, particularly for your Sansui. Certainly keep both, in fact get more!
Spend some time here:-
Tuner Information Center - Vintage Stereo Tuners
Loads of info, particularly for your Sansui. Certainly keep both, in fact get more!
Bear in mind that digital implementations of FM tuners almost always get very poor reviews. This may be because they are added as an afterthought to a digital tuner (e.g. DAB in Europe) and not properly debugged. In principle it ought to be possible to decode wideband FM using digital techniques so I don't know why people seem to do it badly.
My parents had a couple of FM radios that worked great in 1960-70 and didn't in 2008 after I inherited them. So I replaced the electrolytic caps. All the way up into the territory with the inductors and stuff. Much better. No alignment tools, no manual. If the tuner is working and the sound is bad don't mess with the tuner, but if the sensitivity went away don't be afraid to shotgun replace the dried up wet caps. What is it worth anyway, E1? I had a great working without antenna 1980's analog pocket radio that used for a tuner on my hifi, but then I dropped it, so I spent $35 about 2005 on a Sony pocket radio, probably digital. What a piece of ****. No walkman tape section, a dedicated Sony radio that didn't work. A crystal set would have had more sensitivity. It works okay as a digital watch after the power goes out and the clocks have to be reset. I fished an eighties Luxman pocket tape/radio out of the trash at work that works better than the Sony, after I replaced the E-caps and the trash volume control. Nice unisonic IC, picks up just based on the cable to the mixer as an antenna.
Antennas, the good radios don't need them. Good thing, because roof antennas in Indiana attract lightning, and must be disconnected before every storm. I do that for the television, every time I leave the house for more than a day I disconnect the roof antenna. Yeah, there are ground spark traps on the cable outside etc, here is a hint, they don't work. On FM I'm picking up a 750 W high school station in the next county right now with the 1975 14 transistor radio I inherited from my father and re-e-capped. I re-e-capped all the way up into the tuner sections - 1 uf with a plus end in 1975 does not equal 1 uf in 2011. Uses the built in telescoping rod antenna.
Antennas, the good radios don't need them. Good thing, because roof antennas in Indiana attract lightning, and must be disconnected before every storm. I do that for the television, every time I leave the house for more than a day I disconnect the roof antenna. Yeah, there are ground spark traps on the cable outside etc, here is a hint, they don't work. On FM I'm picking up a 750 W high school station in the next county right now with the 1975 14 transistor radio I inherited from my father and re-e-capped. I re-e-capped all the way up into the tuner sections - 1 uf with a plus end in 1975 does not equal 1 uf in 2011. Uses the built in telescoping rod antenna.
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All radio communication requires an antenna! otherwise you wouldn't be able to receive/send anything
What type of antenna you need will differ, and will depend on a lot of factors. A important one is tuner sensitivity, but this is by no means the only thing to consider.
All radio communication requires an antenna! otherwise you wouldn't be able to receive/send anything
What type of antenna you need will differ, and will depend on a lot of factors. A important one is tuner sensitivity, but this is by no means the only thing to consider.
Even he My Favorite Martian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (uncle Martin)
Thanks, Steve. Sounds really good info center.
I have more and more interest on analogue tuners. Wish I could find now a [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Kenwood L-07TII. Really love that design.
Folks, I had no absolute idea that tuners were suffering from misalignment. It seems that everything is inside those IF inductor, right?
The vintage Sansui TU-317 here has a little hiss whereas the digital Luxman does not! Maybe the Sansui needs a more sensitive antenna or it's a sign that it could be a bit misaligned?
Thank you all
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How does it work? Is it a DIY kit?
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So the Sansui could ALSO be "fine", meaning it could be less sensitive than the Luxman?
I noted also that in some stations the Sansui has an equal reception (signal) to the Luxman. Possible?
There isn't much to do about alignment of theese synthesizer tuners actually.
Unless You have a generatr, a wobler, a oscilloscope and other nice instruments.
There would be to tune up the small coils in the frontend, to get the most out of the signals present. Then the IF wich in this case I think is some SAW-filters, ant not possible to trim. The IF in this tuner is possibly attended by a IC. Strange enough, theese IF-ICs tend to drift off, and replacement could often give several dB advantage on the reception.
'but without the proper instruments this is a fairly "dangerous" thing to start with when You don't really know where to start.
Unless You have a generatr, a wobler, a oscilloscope and other nice instruments.
There would be to tune up the small coils in the frontend, to get the most out of the signals present. Then the IF wich in this case I think is some SAW-filters, ant not possible to trim. The IF in this tuner is possibly attended by a IC. Strange enough, theese IF-ICs tend to drift off, and replacement could often give several dB advantage on the reception.
'but without the proper instruments this is a fairly "dangerous" thing to start with when You don't really know where to start.
Frankly if the tuners are working fine, I wouldnt try to improve on them, yes they do require specialized gear $$$$!!
One can go crazy with antennas.........I had a ten element Yagi Uda, two meters long, bought at RS many years ago. Living in Portland Oregon at the time, I missed some stations in Eugene OR. , some 100 miles distant....hooked up to my new Marantz 2220B at an altitude of maybe 500 feet, this antenna brought those stations in like they were right next-door.
You could get a similar multi-element with an antenna rotater & bring in stations in a 100 mile radius, or more, depends on how many elements on your antenna.
_____________________________________________________Rick......
One can go crazy with antennas.........I had a ten element Yagi Uda, two meters long, bought at RS many years ago. Living in Portland Oregon at the time, I missed some stations in Eugene OR. , some 100 miles distant....hooked up to my new Marantz 2220B at an altitude of maybe 500 feet, this antenna brought those stations in like they were right next-door.
You could get a similar multi-element with an antenna rotater & bring in stations in a 100 mile radius, or more, depends on how many elements on your antenna.
_____________________________________________________Rick......
Maybe, I don't know him..
If you want to try simming RF and IF stages (to get a feel for how they work and how sensistive they are) try this SW: AADE Filter Design and Analysis
easy to use & free, good place to start. But I still highly recommend learning how superhet tuners work, once you got that "nailed" you can look at your tuners and try identifying the various circuits and what they should do.
Also interesting and probably usefull is this link (a starting point): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_acoustic_wave
Another good read (basics of AM modulation, imho the most basic form of "modern" radio, sparkgap transmitters are even more basic): http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j...IVGdqt8uvFYjrLn1A&sig2=8q2dEH1unZ8TIwcJA95Riw
And another one: http://www.ni.com/white-paper/3014/en
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