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Old 27th November 2012, 01:17 PM   #51
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Name, names groove -t , name the cartridges which allow us to hear the music and not the cartridges ..

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Old 27th November 2012, 03:45 PM   #52
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Goove-T, very good.

Otoh, they made SQ cartridges that would track out to 40kHz...

So, do you have any quantitative data on the actual mass/weight of these parts?
(% or ratios would be as good as actual mg numbers I guess...)

Even "filling with glue" you've got a really small amount of material.. I would think with cyanoacrylate glues that the amount needed might be very small... epoxies are heavier things...

So, what you are saying is that the typical repair consists of slicing off the old aluminum (hollow) cantilever (what is such a saw??) and inserting the new cantilever section inside the old tube, adhering with some glue?

And in the case of a new construction cartridge with a solid (ruby/boron/etc.) cantilever the method is the same - insert into a stub?

I don't see why the length of the cantilever would be altered...

I would think that the acoustic "sound" of a cartridge might be more a function off transmission via the body of the cartridge and the mounting of the motor assembly in it, as the suspension is somewhat similar and pretty much a constant in almost all MC designs?

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Old 27th November 2012, 04:18 PM   #53
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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It still adds mass Bear , the glue adds more than you would think .....
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Old 27th November 2012, 04:23 PM   #54
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SQ were MMs with Shibata Tips.
This tipmust be very low mass and the interconnects to the phonostage had to be low capacity to allow the tracking of the carrierfrequency of 40 Khz for the rear channels.
They had also smaller magnets and lesser coil windings to achieve this.

Thats why SQ Cartridges are lower in Output compared with usual MMs.

For tip mass data i have a paper somewhere..., but differences are up to 3 times at least.

have a look at the pics at the beginning, there you can see the stub were the cantilevers are inserted.
The shoed 103 L is low mass cantilever with a drop of glue to hold the tip, this gives a lot of moved mass, the 103 has a pretty fat cantilever with pressed in small tip. just very low amount of glue.

All usual MCs use a stub due the suspension wire and damping rubber. The rubber has the most influence on the sound.

To cut cantilevers you can use a highspeed mini wheel saw, you need cool hands to use it
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Old 27th November 2012, 10:00 PM   #55
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Ok, I'd like to know more about a saw that was fine enough and gentle enough for that job!

Burrs would be bad.

Not ripping the thing apart would be good too... what do you hold it with??

I could see laser cutting.

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Old 27th November 2012, 11:00 PM   #56
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I would imagine to cut a delicate cantilever might require a jig of some kind downstream near the coils to do this right. The gross vibration might destroy the delicate wires coming out of the coils. Their incredibly small in diameter
Then what?
What kind of epoxy would you use? It would need to be some Kind of very hard curing mix to transmit these kind of intense signals without loosing detail that a soft epoxy might cause.
Seems like you might have the potential to generate extra resonant peaks if not successfully rigid? Is this ever a concern on rebuilds?

Regards
David
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Old 28th November 2012, 12:24 AM   #57
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I'd expect that if it wasn't sufficiently rigid that it would create a compliance, probably at higher frequencies... that would decouple one side from the other to some extent. But most standard epoxy is too thick for this job I'd expect. There are a wide range of specialty epoxies, including some for optical work that are very thin, and flow... so probably there is one of choice for this job too. Not to mention UV curable types...

But I am very curious what sort of saw is practical for this... that tube is very very delicate (but of course they had to both manufacture and slice them to begin with...

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Old 28th November 2012, 01:24 AM   #58
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groove-T View Post
SQ were MMs with Shibata Tips.
This tipmust be very low mass and the interconnects to the phonostage had to be low capacity to allow the tracking of the carrierfrequency of 40 Khz for the rear channels.
They had also smaller magnets and lesser coil windings to achieve this.

Thats why SQ Cartridges are lower in Output compared with usual MMs.

For tip mass data i have a paper somewhere..., but differences are up to 3 times at least.

have a look at the pics at the beginning, there you can see the stub were the cantilevers are inserted.
The shoed 103 L is low mass cantilever with a drop of glue to hold the tip, this gives a lot of moved mass, the 103 has a pretty fat cantilever with pressed in small tip. just very low amount of glue.

All usual MCs use a stub due the suspension wire and damping rubber. The rubber has the most influence on the sound.

To cut cantilevers you can use a highspeed mini wheel saw, you need cool hands to use it
Still waiting for you to name names .....
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Old 28th November 2012, 01:26 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
But I am very curious what sort of saw is practical for this...
Something small and thin.

jeff
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Old 28th November 2012, 01:37 AM   #60
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groove-T View Post
SQ were MMs with Shibata Tips.
This tipmust be very low mass and the interconnects to the phonostage had to be low capacity to allow the tracking of the carrierfrequency of 40 Khz for the rear channels.
They had also smaller magnets and lesser coil windings to achieve this.

Thats why SQ Cartridges are lower in Output compared with usual MMs.

<snip>
Did you mean CD-4 which used a carrier system for the rear channels? SQ and QS were matrix based encoding schemes.

FWIW CD-4 capable cartridges included MC types from Denon such as DL-103S and several strain gauge types from Panasonic. JVC as the inventor of CD-4 also had a number of CD-4 cartridges obviously.

A little history/commentary: CD-4

And some interesting tidbits on the JVC decoder which was widely sold under other labels:
CD4: JVC 4DD-5 Disc Demodulator (Decoder)
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