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Old 8th November 2012, 02:36 PM   #1
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Default Thorens TD 124 power question...

If you have a TD 124, you know it can be run on 120/220. What I want to know, is there an advantage to running mine at 220?
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:17 PM   #2
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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None that I know of.. (I've tried it, no difference that I could discern.)
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:06 PM   #3
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Default hmmm

Hi Kevin,

I would think the motor would have more torque at 220, no difference?
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Old 8th November 2012, 11:33 PM   #4
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Click the image to open in full size.


No. Assuming you are talking about the shaded pole motor not the Papst "aussenlaufer" motor: there are two coils in the motor which operate in series on 240V and in parallel on 120V, so each coil sees the same voltage and current.

Phot courtesy of Analog Dept.

Last edited by Mark Kelly; 8th November 2012 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:16 PM   #5
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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No..

Note that the windings are always wired in series regardless of selected mains voltage.. See my simplified diagram below. More detailed description available here: Library Downloads | Vinyl Engine

I own two of these tables and have rebuilt a half dozen of these motors in the past year.
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File Type: png td124 Motor diagram.png (43.4 KB, 115 views)
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Old 10th November 2012, 09:04 AM   #6
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I evidently didn't read the wiring diagram carefully enough and assumed it worked like most other shaded pole motors. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Old 11th November 2012, 03:40 PM   #7
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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It's an oddball for sure..

The wire gauges and number of turns per volt seems to differ depending on the vintage, there are something like three variations - I've got two here. (Late 124/II and mid run 124/I) Later motors run a bit cooler and apparently develop a little more torque (I've not measured it). There are a number of European sellers of improved motor windings for these motors. No other differences I am aware of.

Anecdotally the older motors do seem to run hotter, but the last variation does not exactly run cool either..

I am not sure how the situation differs on 220 - 250V operation with 50Hz, but in my limited experiments at 60Hz it did not seem to make any difference, which IMHO is good news.
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Old 11th November 2012, 06:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
It's an oddball for sure..

The wire gauges and number of turns per volt seems to differ depending on the vintage, there are something like three variations - I've got two here. (Late 124/II and mid run 124/I) Later motors run a bit cooler and apparently develop a little more torque (I've not measured it). There are a number of European sellers of improved motor windings for these motors. No other differences I am aware of.

Anecdotally the older motors do seem to run hotter, but the last variation does not exactly run cool either..

I am not sure how the situation differs on 220 - 250V operation with 50Hz, but in my limited experiments at 60Hz it did not seem to make any difference, which IMHO is good news.
From the outset, Thorens themselves admitted the E50 motor to be a cost compromise. Or best they could do at the time and still produce a cost competitive product in its respective market.

My thought is that today it might be very beneficial if say a group of analytical types were to take a close look at the E50 and come up with a way to improve it. We already have the one fellow in Italy producing wiring looms in the style of the last iteration of the E50.

Next I can think of some structural enhancements which would improve axial alignment between upper and lower rotor shaft bushings. The thrust could use a re-design as well. All of which contribute to a quieter,smoother operating motor.

The end goals should be a motor that mimics the operational character of the original E50 but does so with improved performance. Think of aTD124 that attains correct operating speed within 15 seconds of a cold start and holds it there, unwavering, all day. The motor should produce far less vibration that the stock unit does.

It's one thing to take apart and refurbish these things. Who among us thinks that they, given appropriate materials and tooling, could manufacture one?

-Steve
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Old 11th November 2012, 08:17 PM   #9
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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I would be thrilled if someone could improve the E50 design in the ways suggested. The unfortunate thing is that should someone develop such a motor it will be sold through channels that pretty much guarantee a massive mark up here in the USA.

Steve, if you do come up with any improvements that are retrofittable I would be more than willing to try them on my motors.

I suspect the Papst Aussenlaufer running on a 3 phase drive would be pretty good.
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinkr View Post
I would be thrilled if someone could improve the E50 design in the ways suggested. The unfortunate thing is that should someone develop such a motor it will be sold through channels that pretty much guarantee a massive mark up here in the USA.

Steve, if you do come up with any improvements that are retrofittable I would be more than willing to try them on my motors.

I suspect the Papst Aussenlaufer running on a 3 phase drive would be pretty good.
One project at a time. I'm still kind of putzing about with that SP10 mkII.
But I think I would probably purchase a wiring loom from that fellow in Italy, then do my mods to the casing and see how it turns out. If it seems worthwhile I'll post here in the Analog source forum.

re: The 3-phase Papst. Probably the most potent motor to use, but not at all in the character of the Thorens. My take was that it transformed the TD124 into something different. Not sure what. But maybe if I got it to run smoother and managed to get the strobe to work while using it, I might like it better. Definitely, it needs a 3 phase PS to drive it. Tricking the motor into operating like a single-phase, like is described in the Thorens bulletin, is a crude hack at best.

-Steve
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