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Old 27th September 2012, 10:19 PM   #1
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Default Riders on the storm

This is a thread for to continue discussing over cartridge/vinyl/you/name/it/analogue front end technical issues .
This has started at Discrete Opamp Open Design

Many -if not all- here are grown up with vinyl recordings and have been in constant love and in constant trouble with the related equipment for many decades.
I chose the tittle for more or less obvious reasons

George
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Old 27th September 2012, 10:23 PM   #2
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Last OT comment on vinyl- remember that the vinyl is not homogeneous on a microscale.
And I thought that you were kidding !

George
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Old 27th September 2012, 10:45 PM   #3
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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what is the practicle significance of the wide valley at the bottom of the mono groove and the sharp bottom of the microgroove for cartdiges? Looks like trouble if a tip designed for microgroove was used on a mono cut recording.
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Old 27th September 2012, 11:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Looks like trouble if a tip designed for microgroove was used on a mono cut recording.
A lot of multi speed (78-45-33) record players had flip over cartridges with two needles or changeable needles. Notice us baby boomers don't always call it a "stylus." I bought a box of steel needles (78), but only two styli.
Which brings up the question. What does anyone who likes his records do with 78's? Audiophile turntables can't cope with 78's; the record player I inherited from my Mother has about a 2 pound arm. I quoted a Les Brown record the other day, 1951 Quiet Village probably only available in 78's. Somebody else had to tell me that the Les Brown version didn't have bird calls.
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Last edited by indianajo; 27th September 2012 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 28th September 2012, 12:30 AM   #5
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Thumbs up LAST is a must for LP's --

Walt Davies is a chemist. he and a fellow chemist at LLNL invented "LAST' record treatment. it is not a coating. It bonds with the plastic at the molecular level to form a hard matrix that resists wear. The CBS test record and microscope photo's showed no wear or increase in distortion when LAST is used for hundreds of plays. It deserves more use and should be part of preserving everyones new and old LP collection.... its the real deal. I used to live a few doors away from Walt and saw all the tests myself.
Thx - RNM
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Old 28th September 2012, 12:45 AM   #6
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The LAST stylus liquid works great too. It may be PFM, but it works.

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 28th September 2012, 09:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
what is the practicle significance of the wide valley at the bottom of the mono groove and the sharp bottom of the microgroove for cartdiges? Looks like trouble if a tip designed for microgroove was used on a mono cut recording.
Yes, shellacs have to use a spheric tip with tip radius 65 micrometer( be it steel or sapphire) and for micro groove mono 25 micrometers, for microgroove stereo apx 16,5 -17 micrometer and also spheric.

This Last stuff modifies the surface of the microgroove and makes it harder.

This means the elasticity module of the vinyl is modified and thus the resonance of the stylus/cantilver assembly is shifted toward a higher frequency and thus changing the sound.

Second i suppose that a harder record surface creates more stylus wear, but this is not prooven.
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Old 28th September 2012, 01:59 PM   #8
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
--- is a chemist. he and a fellow chemist at --- invented "---' record treatment. it is not a coating. It bonds with the plastic at the molecular level to form a hard matrix that resists wear. The CBS test record and microscope photo's showed no wear or increase in distortion when --- is used for hundreds of plays. It deserves more use and should be part of preserving everyones new and old LP collection.... its the real deal. I used to live a few doors away from --- and saw all the tests myself.
Thx - RNM

RNMarsh
I don’t know for how long you have deliberately abandoned the vinyl wagon, but treating the record surface with a very promising liquid is a story that has repeated itself many times, at least from 1970 and on.
Long term detrimental effects on the record surface was usually the result, regardless from the questionable acoustic short term benefits or the promotional back-up with incomplete (*)techno-scientific claims.

Vinyl records is history records for some, apart from the nostalgic feelings they carry with or the entertainment these provide.

This product that you are referring to, should certainly deserve some more long term testing but you are simply not in position to confirm -at best- it’s long term preservation capabilities . How then do you risk suggesting it’s use to everyone ?

George

(*)Which manufacturer of such a product can support tests for controlled long term effects (conducted by a trusted third party test lab/organisation) before bringing the product to the market? Even the possible long term increased wear on the playback stylus, which will be translated on increased record surface wear by the use of that stylus.

Edit. On the first post, I had placed emphasis on the technical issues in the hope of discouraging discussion deviations toward market claims.
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Last edited by gpapag; 28th September 2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 28th September 2012, 01:59 PM   #9
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Ok, so what is in the LAST stuff, and is it still being sold?

I mean what is the chemical makeup, not what it does... (is there a patent?)

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Old 28th September 2012, 02:03 PM   #10
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The other question that follows is: if it is so good, why did not the record companies apply it themselves in the factory? (back in the day when LP was still king)

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