This is a thread for to continue discussing over cartridge/vinyl/you/name/it/analogue front end technical issues .
This has started at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/218373-discrete-opamp-open-design-117.html#post3177268
Many -if not all- here are grown up with vinyl recordings and have been in constant love and in constant trouble with the related equipment for many decades.
I chose the tittle for more or less obvious reasons
George
This has started at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/218373-discrete-opamp-open-design-117.html#post3177268
Many -if not all- here are grown up with vinyl recordings and have been in constant love and in constant trouble with the related equipment for many decades.
I chose the tittle for more or less obvious reasons
George
A lot of multi speed (78-45-33) record players had flip over cartridges with two needles or changeable needles. Notice us baby boomers don't always call it a "stylus." I bought a box of steel needles (78), but only two styli.
Which brings up the question. What does anyone who likes his records do with 78's? Audiophile turntables can't cope with 78's; the record player I inherited from my Mother has about a 2 pound arm. I quoted a Les Brown record the other day, 1951 Quiet Village probably only available in 78's. Somebody else had to tell me that the Les Brown version didn't have bird calls.
Last edited:
LAST is a must for LP's --
Walt Davies is a chemist. he and a fellow chemist at LLNL invented "LAST' record treatment. it is not a coating. It bonds with the plastic at the molecular level to form a hard matrix that resists wear. The CBS test record and microscope photo's showed no wear or increase in distortion when LAST is used for hundreds of plays. It deserves more use and should be part of preserving everyones new and old LP collection.... its the real deal. I used to live a few doors away from Walt and saw all the tests myself.
Thx - RNM
Walt Davies is a chemist. he and a fellow chemist at LLNL invented "LAST' record treatment. it is not a coating. It bonds with the plastic at the molecular level to form a hard matrix that resists wear. The CBS test record and microscope photo's showed no wear or increase in distortion when LAST is used for hundreds of plays. It deserves more use and should be part of preserving everyones new and old LP collection.... its the real deal. I used to live a few doors away from Walt and saw all the tests myself.
Thx - RNM
Yes, shellacs have to use a spheric tip with tip radius 65 micrometer( be it steel or sapphire) and for micro groove mono 25 micrometers, for microgroove stereo apx 16,5 -17 micrometer and also spheric.
This Last stuff modifies the surface of the microgroove and makes it harder.
This means the elasticity module of the vinyl is modified and thus the resonance of the stylus/cantilver assembly is shifted toward a higher frequency and thus changing the sound.
Second i suppose that a harder record surface creates more stylus wear, but this is not prooven.
RNMarsh
I don’t know for how long you have deliberately abandoned the vinyl wagon, but treating the record surface with a very promising liquid is a story that has repeated itself many times, at least from 1970 and on.
Long term detrimental effects on the record surface was usually the result, regardless from the questionable acoustic short term benefits or the promotional back-up with incomplete (*)techno-scientific claims.
Vinyl records is history records for some, apart from the nostalgic feelings they carry with or the entertainment these provide.
This product that you are referring to, should certainly deserve some more long term testing but you are simply not in position to confirm -at best- it’s long term preservation capabilities . How then do you risk suggesting it’s use to everyone ?
George
(*)Which manufacturer of such a product can support tests for controlled long term effects (conducted by a trusted third party test lab/organisation) before bringing the product to the market? Even the possible long term increased wear on the playback stylus, which will be translated on increased record surface wear by the use of that stylus.
Edit. On the first post, I had placed emphasis on the technical issues in the hope of discouraging discussion deviations toward market claims.
Last edited:
Before applying such a hardener, the record must be cleaned perfectly, otherwise some particles will stick forever .
Record companies do not apply such a stuff because this cost some money and brings nothing for the company.
Record companies also do not apply some liquid stuff to better release the new pressed record from the pressing machine. This job is self done by the record due the different tempco of vinyl an the metal pressing platter.
Making the record harder is no good IMHO, since the record/stylus contact produces some temperature due the pressure.
EMT wrote a paper which declared that that the contact surface on each side of the tip is apx 30 square micrometers ( this is for radius 18micrometer spheric), with elliptic tips it can go down to apx 20 , Shibata up to apx. 45 .
The limit wight before vinyl begins to deform is apx 40kiloponds per square millimeter!
Thus the stylus pressure limit is apx 4,5 grams for a stereotip spheric or 8,7 for mono spheric.
So you have something to calculate and think abouth.
There are also some liquids sold to apply on the stylus and promise the stylus will holding longer. As far as i know diamond is harder than all other stuff known to me.
This remember me to James Brown, he had a song with the text: Shake the moneymaker...
Record companies do not apply such a stuff because this cost some money and brings nothing for the company.
Record companies also do not apply some liquid stuff to better release the new pressed record from the pressing machine. This job is self done by the record due the different tempco of vinyl an the metal pressing platter.
Making the record harder is no good IMHO, since the record/stylus contact produces some temperature due the pressure.
EMT wrote a paper which declared that that the contact surface on each side of the tip is apx 30 square micrometers ( this is for radius 18micrometer spheric), with elliptic tips it can go down to apx 20 , Shibata up to apx. 45 .
The limit wight before vinyl begins to deform is apx 40kiloponds per square millimeter!
Thus the stylus pressure limit is apx 4,5 grams for a stereotip spheric or 8,7 for mono spheric.
So you have something to calculate and think abouth.
There are also some liquids sold to apply on the stylus and promise the stylus will holding longer. As far as i know diamond is harder than all other stuff known to me.
This remember me to James Brown, he had a song with the text: Shake the moneymaker...
All your questions can be answered by contacting the LAST factory in Livermore, California. A slightly different forlumation has been applied to tape recorder heads with similar wear reduction. It is not a new product but since so many people still play with LP's, I think it is something all should try and use. I still have some left over before I sold all my LP's a few years ago. A life times collection. But I am not sorry i did that.
And, again, NO it isnt a coating that comes off and gums up the stylus.
It is what i said it is. YOU need to check into it and get the use of it. Its a small family operation and never had the funds to go big. But if you want to preserve your records, you need it. I am not here to convince you of anything but to inform you.
See: www.lastfactory.com
Thx - Richard
And, again, NO it isnt a coating that comes off and gums up the stylus.
It is what i said it is. YOU need to check into it and get the use of it. Its a small family operation and never had the funds to go big. But if you want to preserve your records, you need it. I am not here to convince you of anything but to inform you.
See: www.lastfactory.com
Thx - Richard
Last edited:
I have no dog in the hunt (meaning I don't sell the stuff) but I started using Last products at about the time I started buying audiophile vinyl back in '86 when I was still in school. I used the stylus cleaner and protector, record cleaner, and record preservative. It did no harm to the records and as far as I can tell, I don't hear much wear from the records. However, if I did loan a record or two to a friend with a substandard stylus, I did hear the effects of that on my records!
I don't hear much wear on my records (LP's), some of which I've had 41 years. The ones before that were played on my Mother's RCA record player with the 5 g arm and crystal cartridge, and the highs were ripped right off by one play. I've had a 1.5 g arm since 1970 with magnetic cartridges. One diamond on a Grado FTE cartridge from the late seventies did fracture, and damage a few records before I heard it.
I do wash them with tap water sometimes, and the used ones need soap sometimes to get the insect **** off. Capitols used to come from the factory with a good coating of pops, so don't use any last on those. I notice the EMI version of Abbey Road I bought 2 years ago was much quieter. I think the old Capitol pressing plant must have had open windows, big fans, and was in the mojave desert. You couldn't get Beatles or Beach Boys from anybody else (until Mobil Fidelity) but no money wasted on Capitol Classical for me, thank you.
Other low price brands were as bad, Everest and Pickwick had wood pulp filled vinyl, it sounded like. So no LAST for me.
I do wash them with tap water sometimes, and the used ones need soap sometimes to get the insect **** off. Capitols used to come from the factory with a good coating of pops, so don't use any last on those. I notice the EMI version of Abbey Road I bought 2 years ago was much quieter. I think the old Capitol pressing plant must have had open windows, big fans, and was in the mojave desert. You couldn't get Beatles or Beach Boys from anybody else (until Mobil Fidelity) but no money wasted on Capitol Classical for me, thank you.
Other low price brands were as bad, Everest and Pickwick had wood pulp filled vinyl, it sounded like. So no LAST for me.
Last edited:
Thank you.
If you were not plainly promoting it (post #5) without providing technical justification, I wouldn’t mind.
I understand that it is not a coating that can gum the stylus. Most probably their product works on the vinyl surface by adsorption.
What I guess their product is doing, is to reduce the positive static electrical charge on the record surface, thus significantly reducing the attraction from the environment and subsequent entrapment of debris in the record grooves.
That would be a worthwhile achievement in the direction of record long term preservation, provided that the mechanism of adsorption which would be responsible for this beneficial effect does not surface harden the groove walls at the same time.
( By the way, there is no mention of surface hardening on their site).
Neverteless, hitting the tag “Record Care”, I read this:
A very frightening fairytale . How come all these years, hundreds of thousands of vinyl records in use have not been totally damaged through these “shock waves”?
Reality does not support it.
Such shock waves and/or spall cracking generation require energy levels some good orders of magnitude greater than the maximum HF acoustic or ultrasonic energy the stylus/record groove interaction can generate at the contact points.
Vinyl softened by plasticizers and record grooves spacing/geometry does not favour generated waves energy and energy from wave interaction reaching local high energy build-up. Controlled (low Q) build up of energy occurs and can show up on mechanical impedance diagrams at mid audio frequencies, where wavelengths are too long for the dimensions concerned. Thinking in focused wave mode there is unjustified.
They had better put some real numbers into this scenario (data extrapolation on experimental data from other fields of applied engineering can lead to erroneous conclusions).
It is my opinion that it would be for the benefit of a manufacturer if he would provide enough technical documentation for to support the specifications or claimed functionality of his product(s).
It is for the benefit of each individual –potential customer- to test the rigorousness of the manufacturers documentation.
In any case, the onus of proof is on the manufacturer/claimer and not on me or anyone else here.
Besides I don’t fancy hunting ghosts or questioning commercial products.
I am only interested (and willing to participate) in discussing technical issues
George
Last edited:
A few points:
1. Vinyl records do use a mold release- sometimes it's internal to the vinyl formulation, sometimes it's sprayed on. Vinyl compounds tend to be a bit sticky to metal, so you can't rely on the cooling shrinkage. If the release is internal, no amount of cleaning will get rid of it, it will continue blooming to the surface.
2. LAST may or may not work, but the description is nonsense.
3. If it's still being made and anyone wants to send me some, I'll deformulate and post the results.
4. The once-popular wet-playing system from Lenco will absolutely destroy discs.
5. Lubricant sprays (e.g., Gruv Glide) can work nicely, but are amazingly efficient at coating the stylus.
6. I have seen conchoidal fractures in grooves, but no good evidence that it's from the sort of spalling George quoted.
1. Vinyl records do use a mold release- sometimes it's internal to the vinyl formulation, sometimes it's sprayed on. Vinyl compounds tend to be a bit sticky to metal, so you can't rely on the cooling shrinkage. If the release is internal, no amount of cleaning will get rid of it, it will continue blooming to the surface.
2. LAST may or may not work, but the description is nonsense.
3. If it's still being made and anyone wants to send me some, I'll deformulate and post the results.
4. The once-popular wet-playing system from Lenco will absolutely destroy discs.
5. Lubricant sprays (e.g., Gruv Glide) can work nicely, but are amazingly efficient at coating the stylus.
6. I have seen conchoidal fractures in grooves, but no good evidence that it's from the sort of spalling George quoted.
@SY
Those videos i have seen, there was no external mold release used, but hardly i have seen everything.
Last Stylus treatment shall be applied before listening a record, so i wonder what it does or how it should work, it can not be as hars as a diamond.
The description of Last record preserve says, that the record must be cleaned absolute properly befor using.
This explains why the pic with the treated groove did not have dirt or dust
I know from experience that Lencoclena killed the records, but why? What happens?
I just know, that there is a cooling effect with the liquid and i assume the diamond is not in proper contact with the groove due the waterfilm..?
Those videos i have seen, there was no external mold release used, but hardly i have seen everything.
Last Stylus treatment shall be applied before listening a record, so i wonder what it does or how it should work, it can not be as hars as a diamond.
The description of Last record preserve says, that the record must be cleaned absolute properly befor using.
This explains why the pic with the treated groove did not have dirt or dust
I know from experience that Lencoclena killed the records, but why? What happens?
I just know, that there is a cooling effect with the liquid and i assume the diamond is not in proper contact with the groove due the waterfilm..?
Groove, or the release may be internal. Vinyl formulations can contain a fatty ester for this purpose.
Sonidos, the splotches are more likely mold growth (the fatty esters are good bug food) or something nastier- the mold release is a very thin layer and usually transparent. When you come up to visit, bring one along and we'll put it under the microscope.
Sonidos, the splotches are more likely mold growth (the fatty esters are good bug food) or something nastier- the mold release is a very thin layer and usually transparent. When you come up to visit, bring one along and we'll put it under the microscope.
If no one else steps up I think I have a circa 1981 bottle somewhere. I did a one side LAST one side no LAST and was careful to always play both sides over almost 20yr. It was inconclusive since the LAST side seemed less noisey but sounded thinner.
I have a friend who makes sure all his TT and carts are waterproof and just pours it on.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.