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Old 5th October 2012, 01:45 PM   #31
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LAST preservative fluid came with a kind of a brush to apply on the records.
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Old 5th October 2012, 02:04 PM   #32
SY is offline SY  United States
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bear, if it thickens, it would be because of dirt entrapment- once the solvent is dried off, they're pretty nonvolatile. The key is getting the wettability of the formulation correct so that the stuff doesn't clump up in the groove and transfer off to the stylus. Matching vinyl's surface energy is the basic requirement.

But again, the function here is lubricant, not "hardening" of the vinyl. The search for polymeric Viagra goes on...
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Old 5th October 2012, 03:14 PM   #33
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The last I saw was a pump spray bottle, iirc.

The stuff in the bottle with the brush I recall (30+ years back now) as being for the stylus?

Dunno...

Stuart, yes, "wettability" but I'm not seeing exactly how the stuff gets evenly applied, or if it matters... given that high pressure between the stylus and groove that was mentioned a while back, it might look like a ship plowing through the water, squeegee-ing the stuff along? Or maybe it ends up being molecules thick only?? Magic lube?

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Old 5th October 2012, 03:22 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetsweetback View Post
From US5389281
Composition for Phonograph Record Preservation
A composition suitable for preserving vinyl phonograph records was prepared as follows:

Fomblin.RTM. Y25/6 (Montefluos, Milan, Italy) was mixed with Fluorinert.RTM. FC-40 (3M, St. Paul, Minn.), and the mixture dissolved in PF5060 (3M), to a final composition of Fomblin.RTM. Y25/6=0.1 v %, Fluorinert.RTM. FC-40=0.5 v %, PF5060=99.4 v %. The resulting formulation was filtered through a 0.2 .mu.m filter, and dispensed into a glass, air-tight bottle and sealed.

No assignee is listed that I could see, but one of the inventors lives in Livermore where last is headquartered. The chemical trade names are defined in The description. Interestingly, the record preservative is exemplified in the Examples section, but is not specifically claimed. The mix seems to be mostly per fluorinated hydrocarbons and polyethers. And an alkylated hexynol.
Yes the viscosity was very similar the the florinert that we used in hot/cold baths.
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Old 5th October 2012, 03:28 PM   #35
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
Or maybe it ends up being molecules thick only?? Magic lube?
Probably thicker than a monolayer. No magic, just the same as applying something like ArmorAll to your tires or Rain-X to your windshield, then wiping.
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Old 5th October 2012, 07:40 PM   #36
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Adsorption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Surface energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polymer adsorption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polyvinyl chloride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polyvinylchloride PVC (CAS Ref.-No. 9002-86-2)
Surface free energy (SFE) at 20 °C in mN/m: 41.5
Dispersive contrib. of SFE in mN/m: 39.5
Polar contrib. of SFE in mN/m: 2
Temp.coefficient SFEin mN/(m K): -

Solid surface energy data (SFE) for common polymers

(prepare yourself for writing a small article for the masses)

George
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Old 6th October 2012, 11:46 PM   #37
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
It's the wet playing that does something. I haven't investigated the cause yet, but it absolutely ruined some of my discs (horribly noisy when played dry afterward, no amount of cleaning fixed it). Heard the same from other users of the wet-play system.

Now that I have access to an SEM again, I may revisit this.

I am thinking of the cooling effect water can have.
If the stylus warms up the vinyl at the tiny contact area a bit above 80 d. Celcius which is the Glass Transition temperature (Tg) of vinyl and then as the stulus moves forward, the warmed up tiny vinyl area will start to cool down slowly mostly through the mass of vinyl and much less through air. This, with dry playing.
When water is in the grooves (wet playing), this cooling down will be more abrupt. Can this have an effect in vinyl’s molecular rearrangement around Tg?

I copy (and underline) from
Glass transition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
The glass transition of a liquid to a solid-like state may occur with either cooling or compression. The transition comprises a smooth increase in the viscosity of a material by as much as 17 orders of magnitude without any pronounced change in material structure.
The consequence of this dramatic increase is a glass exhibiting solid-like mechanical properties on the timescale of practical observation. This transition is in contrast to the freezing or crystallization transition, which is a first-order phase transition in the Ehrenfest classification and involves discontinuities in thermodynamic and dynamic properties such as volume, energy, and viscosity. In many materials that normally undergo a freezing transition, rapid cooling will avoid this phase transition and instead result in a glass transition at some lower temperature. Other materials, such as many polymers, lack a well defined crystalline state and easily form glasses, even upon very slow cooling or compression.
Below the transition temperature range, the glassy structure does not relax in accordance with the cooling rate used. The expansion coefficient for the glassy state is roughly equivalent to that of the crystalline solid. If slower cooling rates are used, the increased time for structural relaxation (or intermolecular rearrangement) to occur may result in a higher density glass product. Similarly, by annealing (and thus allowing for slow structural relaxation) the glass structure in time approaches an equilibrium density corresponding to the supercooled liquid at this same temperature. Tg is located at the intersection between the cooling curve (volume versus temperature) for the glassy state and the supercooled liquid.
George

Attached, a PVC formulation for vinyl records. This is for SY exclusivelly
Attached Images
File Type: jpg vinyl composition.jpg (255.1 KB, 98 views)
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Old 10th October 2012, 12:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpapag View Post
I am thinking of the cooling effect water can have.
If the stylus warms up the vinyl at the tiny contact area a bit above 80 d. Celcius which is the Glass Transition temperature (Tg) of vinyl and then as the stulus moves forward, the warmed up tiny vinyl area will start to cool down slowly mostly through the mass of vinyl and much less through air. This, with dry playing.
When water is in the grooves (wet playing), this cooling down will be more abrupt. Can this have an effect in vinyl’s molecular rearrangement around Tg?

George

I am pretty sure thats the reason that wetplay kill the records.

Next that water can go into the cantilever when it is hollow( capillar effect), thats rarely a good thing for durability and dust and dirt can stick better on stylus and cantilever.
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Old 11th October 2012, 03:42 PM   #39
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Default Fomblin / Krytox

In my day job I use different viscosities of both Fomblin and Krytox in oil and grease form in high vacuum chambers. I second SY's statement that they do not harden; their extremely low vapor pressure that makes them ideal for vacuum lubrication also makes them quite stable with little volumetric reduction due to solvent loss.

If LAST indeed is a solution of fluorocarbon solvent and Fomblin, it is merely an interstitial lubricant between the stylus and vinyl. The downside to using this would be an enhanced tendency to retain dust compared to dry vinyl. I was always too scared to use it on precious LPs, having ruined a couple trying "wet playing." Plus, surface noise and wear have never been a limiting factor for me with good styli and quiet preamps.

Just my experience, YMMV...

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Old 11th October 2012, 06:25 PM   #40
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I am so glad that I never tried the wet approach to my vinyl. After Armor All on my CD's, I was much more cautious on what I put on any disc.

Although I put baby oil on one Mo-Fi disc (why? I was all of 20, with acne, and an IQ of 20 to match!), the only cleaner that got it all out was Disc Doctor. Truly a horrible, horrible idea.
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