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Old 9th October 2012, 09:17 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzforb View Post
Is it wrong to assume that an Opamp sounds worse than discrete? If it does sound worse, what would be the reasons for this. I know a few that were designed by very talented individuals in the business, who also love music. Really just wandering and seeking opinions from more experienced listeners and designers.
Well in my limited controlled experience the OP-AMP including AD797 never proved to sound better than a discrete stage.
But to answer to this question, Joachim will definitely be more qulified as he worked extesively with both technology.
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Old 9th October 2012, 09:20 PM   #222
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Designing discrete is more fun and i can get a better dynamic range and less noise.
That applies primary to the input stage. Where opamps major is low distortion, high gain and good DC precision. When i use opamps i bias then into class A and use a discrete output buffer. i also make sure that they do not slew. I also found that diffent opamps sound different. Just last year i build a phono stage for LÁrt du Son and Martina Schöner made a very detailed listening test to opamps. We made sure that non of them oscillated. That can really screw up the sound. Funny enough we had the same priorities and identified the same opamp as best sounding out of at least 10 different types.
Why that is is not explainable from distortion only. A well designed NE5534 stage has so low distortion that you can chalange even a good distortion analyzer. Especially with the class A trick and shunt feedback. Douglas Self has shown that. The only explanation i have is settling time and PSU rejection. The ear may also be able to differentiate materials and construction techniques. That has to be put in perspective though. The differences we heard may not be night and day and it is a bit like wine tasting. Quite small differences can come out stronger with more experience and listening time.
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Old 9th October 2012, 09:47 PM   #223
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Are you saying in other words that a more dynamic and quiter sound can be obtained by using discrete thus achieving an overall better sound?

That would match my little experience too and that might be the reason why lately I have audityioned some serious different very expensive phono stage.
None of them really blown me away.
Maybe the reason has to be researched on the technology used, maybe they likely use OP-AMPs inside, just guessing.
Regarding different op-amps sounding differently, I have noticed that and it's just like other things such as resistors and capacitors: 99.9% of the time the difference is unmeasurable but the ear can easily detect it.
Some time difference is not day and night other times it is. Just thinking of comparing an expensive good signal cable vs. a "black/red" type of standard chord: difference there is really day and night.
That is so interesting to me and IMHO it is part of the game to dial everything right in to get best sound out of it.
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Old 9th October 2012, 10:11 PM   #224
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Yes, i think a phono with less noise and hum sounds better.
I even would say that noise, hum and distortion is not allowed. The opamps get the distortion part right so i use them for comparison.
Also some of the never opamps have very good transistors in there that you do not get as discrete parts. For example the germanium-silizium process in the new Burr-Brown opamps like OPA1641 and OPA1611. That kind of transistors allow simpler topology structures to be made. Ohh, i forgot, i think simpler sounds better usually WHEN the circuit does the job, so no compromise in noise, hum and distortion. Concerning precision of the RIAA i think that matching between channels is more important then say a plus-minus 0.1dB result although that results in good matching too by default.
MiiB and i even decided on contouring the RIIA of the Paradise with a small lift in the deep bass, say plus 0.3 to 0.5db under 200Hz. We found that this way more records started to sound acceptable. What i really do not like is a rising response towards the treble.
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Old 9th October 2012, 10:21 PM   #225
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By the way you can make an ultra low noise MC stage with opamps too by just paralleling
many like we do with discrete. I have shown stages like that with 8 in parallel and called that "Dolphin". I have shown that on the MPP thread.
For me an opamp is just a building block, like a resistor, a cap or a discrete transistor.
Progress comes in my book if you understand what the part does. i call that decoding.
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Old 10th October 2012, 05:59 PM   #226
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Bob Cordell has put so some additional information about his phono stage on his website:
CordellAudio.com - VinylTrak™ Preamp
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Old 10th October 2012, 07:34 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
Bob Cordell has put so some additional information about his phono stage on his website:
CordellAudio.com - VinylTrak™ Preamp
This is really interesting stuff.
So is the phono completely discrete? and has a SE input and then transforms it inot balance?

I have looked for the Issue. The number 0 can be purchased on Amazon while they don't have number 4.
The website doesn't sell the issue.
You know where to purchase those?
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Old 10th October 2012, 07:57 PM   #228
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The input is discrete and balanced, open loop, then comes opamps.
Send Jan an e-mail and you will get Linear Audio from him.
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Old 10th October 2012, 08:35 PM   #229
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ok I will look for his contact on the website and send him an email.

Thanks Joachim.

P.S. are the other 3 realease (1,2 and 3) "worth" to buy them?
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Old 10th October 2012, 08:54 PM   #230
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Yes, all. My professor gave me advice when i wanted to do something new : Study what others have done.
More or less anything has being done but you may find a new combination that has some advantages.
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