Thanks, BB. I've been looking at another brand that is so similar to the Sonix IV that I guessed it was also 60 kHz (almost no specs available on line). I made an inquiry, and sure enough it is 60 kHz. I didn't ask directly, but I assume it's a rebranded product.
I also asked about the heat (again, no user control) and was told that it's preset to maintain the bath at 140 - 170 F which is supposed to be optimal for the intended application. This range is consistent with your experience, and it suggests that there's a thermostat inside. If you can find the thermostat and reset it to a lower range you might enjoy your Sonix even more.
I also asked about the heat (again, no user control) and was told that it's preset to maintain the bath at 140 - 170 F which is supposed to be optimal for the intended application. This range is consistent with your experience, and it suggests that there's a thermostat inside. If you can find the thermostat and reset it to a lower range you might enjoy your Sonix even more.
Thanks, Ishmail. What's the brand of the version you're looking at?
I hear you on the temps, and understand you can go that warm with the vinyl. I'm more worried about my hands above 130 and personally don't want to be handling records that hot. That's all up to the individual of course.
It would be interesting to look and see exactly where the thermostat sensor is located. As I mentioned, the tank below the waterline can just be warm, while the exposed tank wall gets scalding hot!
I hear you on the temps, and understand you can go that warm with the vinyl. I'm more worried about my hands above 130 and personally don't want to be handling records that hot. That's all up to the individual of course.
It would be interesting to look and see exactly where the thermostat sensor is located. As I mentioned, the tank below the waterline can just be warm, while the exposed tank wall gets scalding hot!
I'll answer this in a day or two since I'm likely to bid on one soon. I'm happy to share after that.
I meant that 140 - 170 F is optimal for the intended purpose that these machines are designed for and marketed to, not necessarily for vinyl. I think your practice of 100 - 105 F is about right for our use. At 140 - 170, the vinyl would likely warp visibly. The steam-cleaning crowd would say that LPs recover their flat shape on cooling, but I'm not going there. I agree; who wants to deal with that level of heat, anyway? I'd sacrifice some cleaning power for the safety of a lower temperature range.
If I can't adjust the thermostat, I'd control the temp manually, just as you do. It's probably a good idea to use a kitchen thermometer to monitor the temp, in any case, since the ultrasonic energy alone can raise the bath temperature.
Frequency Choice
Hi Shaun,
Here are a couple of links that have guided my thinking (there are others too):
Ultrasonic Cleaning and Washing Systems
Questions and answers about Ultrasonic Cleaning
Here's a useful graph of frequency vs particle size and effectiveness of removal. As a frame of reference, atmospheric dust can come in an enormous range of sizes --- .001 microns up to 40 microns or more. Tobacco smoke particles can be .01 to 4 microns. Note how much better 80khz is than 40kHz at the smaller particle sizes. 80kHz looks about optimal to me. 60kHz is almost as good if you just interpolate the 40 and 80 curves, certainly better than 40kHz.
BB
Hi Shaun,
Here are a couple of links that have guided my thinking (there are others too):
Ultrasonic Cleaning and Washing Systems
Questions and answers about Ultrasonic Cleaning
Here's a useful graph of frequency vs particle size and effectiveness of removal. As a frame of reference, atmospheric dust can come in an enormous range of sizes --- .001 microns up to 40 microns or more. Tobacco smoke particles can be .01 to 4 microns. Note how much better 80khz is than 40kHz at the smaller particle sizes. 80kHz looks about optimal to me. 60kHz is almost as good if you just interpolate the 40 and 80 curves, certainly better than 40kHz.
BB
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Timely discussion on choice of frequency for the build. I am chomping at the bit to get my build underway but it seems like a 60Khz machine is not in my budget ($400) so I am hesitating on pulling the trigger on a 40Khz unit.
I found this simplistic explanation of the impacts of the different frequencies:
Research by B.P. Richards et al at GEC Marconi and the EMPF Laboratory suggests four parameters for the safe cleaning of PCBs using ultrasonic technology:
The ultrasonic frequency should be 40 kHz or higher. The lower the frequency the more aggressive the ultrasonic cavitation becomes.
"Sweep" or "Alternating" frequency technology be used to prevent "hot spots" in the cleaning bath.
The "Power Density" should be 10 watts per liter or less (referred to as Low Power Density). The higher the power density the stronger the "scrubbing" action (the electrical output of the ultrasonic generator(s) divided by the total liters of cleaning solution in the bath).
The ultrasonic wash cycle should be 10 minutes or less.
Today, most all ultrasonic cleaning systems incorporate the first two parameters and the wash cycle time is easy to control. The "power density" is the variable that may be the cause.
Most ultrasonic cleaning systems are made to be used with generic cleaning chemistries and therefore need to incorporate the highest power density that is economically feasible.
Comparing the ultrasonic frequency and power density to a manual "scrub brush" application, the frequency is similar to the type ob brush used. 20 kHz would be equal to a wire brush and 60 kHz would be equal to a toothbrush. 40 kHz is somewhere in between.
The power density is equal to the amount of exertion placed of the brush. High power density (> 10 watts per liter) is like scrubbing hard using two hands. Low power density (< 10 watts per liter) is like scrubbing lightly using only one hand.
Therefore, a combination of low frequency and high power density provides the most aggressive ultrasonic cleaning action and high frequency and low power density provides a more gentle cleaning action.
I found this simplistic explanation of the impacts of the different frequencies:
Research by B.P. Richards et al at GEC Marconi and the EMPF Laboratory suggests four parameters for the safe cleaning of PCBs using ultrasonic technology:
The ultrasonic frequency should be 40 kHz or higher. The lower the frequency the more aggressive the ultrasonic cavitation becomes.
"Sweep" or "Alternating" frequency technology be used to prevent "hot spots" in the cleaning bath.
The "Power Density" should be 10 watts per liter or less (referred to as Low Power Density). The higher the power density the stronger the "scrubbing" action (the electrical output of the ultrasonic generator(s) divided by the total liters of cleaning solution in the bath).
The ultrasonic wash cycle should be 10 minutes or less.
Today, most all ultrasonic cleaning systems incorporate the first two parameters and the wash cycle time is easy to control. The "power density" is the variable that may be the cause.
Most ultrasonic cleaning systems are made to be used with generic cleaning chemistries and therefore need to incorporate the highest power density that is economically feasible.
Comparing the ultrasonic frequency and power density to a manual "scrub brush" application, the frequency is similar to the type ob brush used. 20 kHz would be equal to a wire brush and 60 kHz would be equal to a toothbrush. 40 kHz is somewhere in between.
The power density is equal to the amount of exertion placed of the brush. High power density (> 10 watts per liter) is like scrubbing hard using two hands. Low power density (< 10 watts per liter) is like scrubbing lightly using only one hand.
Therefore, a combination of low frequency and high power density provides the most aggressive ultrasonic cleaning action and high frequency and low power density provides a more gentle cleaning action.
I think I also got to 80kHz, based on the particle sizes shown here http://www.synthgear.com/2010/audio-gear/record-grooves-electron-microscope/ , but dialed it back to 60kHz as a compromise based on considerations of efficiency vs availability (most are 40kHz), and the fact that 40kHz UCs are being used successfully in this application.
Thanks for the links.
Thanks for the links.
Thanks again BB . Very helpful!
I have started to assemble the parts but am still on the fence about whether to hold out for a 60KHz machine or go with a 40KHz at half the price. I scored a collection of 500 albums at a garage sale last weekend so I am kind of impatient to get my URC up and running so I am leaning towards the 40KHz.
I tried to order the motor from Herbach & Rademan today but they are back-ordered on the 5 & 6 RPH motors for several weeks at least. Any other recomendations or opinions?
Again thanks for all of your help. It is much appreciated!
Really? I wonder if we created a run on these motors for building URC machines?
I've also noticed Sonix IV has pulled their UC units off of their eBay storefront. They've been up there for at least 2 years, and were the cheapest way to get the Sonix machines.
Clock-Keys.com is one place that has the Sonix machines at reasonable prices, although not as cheap as Sonix sold them. Part no. at Clock-keys is 18317 for the Sonix unit without heater.
Don't know of other places to get the motors offhand.
Congrats on your 500 record haul. It will take some time to clean and listen to all those...
Hidden option for 60 kHz cleaner
I just purchased a NOS 60 kHz cleaner on fleabay for $360. It's the GemOro model 1705 in the attached image.
Like some of the others posting here, I've been looking high and low for an affordable 60 kHz machine. The Sonix IV (SIV) that the OP purchased was the best I could do until I noticed similarities between the previous model from GemOro, a popular line marketed to jewelers, and the previous model from Sonix IV. I eventually concluded that GemOro benchtops are rebranded SIVs. Compare the attached image to the old SIVs, and you'll see the similarities. Here is more evidence: (1) Tank dimensions, as quoted, are identical: 11 1/2" x 5 1/2" x 6", case construction is identical (except for black powder coat finish on the GemOro), identical controls down to the specific knobs and switches, similar claims and features (sweep mode, most powerful cleaner in its class, auto tune function that compensates for different water levels, etc.), same warrantee (2/10 years on the unit/transducer).
I still hesitated, because I couldn't find information about the power and frequency specs for the GemOro anywhere, and a similar case doesn't always mean that the works are the same. Eventually, I sent an inquiry to the GemOro distributor and received the following information:
Frequency: 60 kHz (!!!)
Preset temp. range for heater: 140-170 degrees
Now I'm convinced they're the same. However, I received no response from the distributer when I indelicately asked the question directly.
The current models from both companies appear to have mostly external changes. GemOro moved from powder coat to a SS case (a real improvement, since SS should be more durable), rearranged the controls, and added some flashing lights of questionable use. SIV seems to have wrapped aluminum around the old painted case which can still be seen peaking through in the corner where the controls are (see OPs images). The distributor confirmed that the new and old GemOros are functionally the same, except for the SS case and a new Turbo sweep mode (I'm not sure what this is or what it's supposed to do. The rep said, "The output is the same, only the water becomes more agitated in “Turbo Sweep” mode.")
What does all this mean for those looking for a 60 kHz cleaner?
1. The prices of new models from the two companies are about the same, but now you have two brands to bargain hunt over. All other 60 kHz machines that I found were much more expensive.
2. There does seem to be a better supply of deals on NOS and used GemOros available. I almost went for a very clean, used 10-quart GemOro that eventually sold for $227 on the bay earlier this week. A real steal, but I decided it's too big for my setup.
3. If you're considering buying used, wouldn't you rather get one that cleaned rings and bracelets as opposed to one from a dental or medical practice (yuck)?
4. As always, patience is required for bargain hunters.
Hope this helps.
I should mention that the distributor's rep recommended against using the GemOro to clean vinyl, but the OPs experience and other information shared in this thread suggests otherwise. So, I'm in now.
I just purchased a NOS 60 kHz cleaner on fleabay for $360. It's the GemOro model 1705 in the attached image.
Like some of the others posting here, I've been looking high and low for an affordable 60 kHz machine. The Sonix IV (SIV) that the OP purchased was the best I could do until I noticed similarities between the previous model from GemOro, a popular line marketed to jewelers, and the previous model from Sonix IV. I eventually concluded that GemOro benchtops are rebranded SIVs. Compare the attached image to the old SIVs, and you'll see the similarities. Here is more evidence: (1) Tank dimensions, as quoted, are identical: 11 1/2" x 5 1/2" x 6", case construction is identical (except for black powder coat finish on the GemOro), identical controls down to the specific knobs and switches, similar claims and features (sweep mode, most powerful cleaner in its class, auto tune function that compensates for different water levels, etc.), same warrantee (2/10 years on the unit/transducer).
I still hesitated, because I couldn't find information about the power and frequency specs for the GemOro anywhere, and a similar case doesn't always mean that the works are the same. Eventually, I sent an inquiry to the GemOro distributor and received the following information:
Frequency: 60 kHz (!!!)
Preset temp. range for heater: 140-170 degrees
Now I'm convinced they're the same. However, I received no response from the distributer when I indelicately asked the question directly.
The current models from both companies appear to have mostly external changes. GemOro moved from powder coat to a SS case (a real improvement, since SS should be more durable), rearranged the controls, and added some flashing lights of questionable use. SIV seems to have wrapped aluminum around the old painted case which can still be seen peaking through in the corner where the controls are (see OPs images). The distributor confirmed that the new and old GemOros are functionally the same, except for the SS case and a new Turbo sweep mode (I'm not sure what this is or what it's supposed to do. The rep said, "The output is the same, only the water becomes more agitated in “Turbo Sweep” mode.")
What does all this mean for those looking for a 60 kHz cleaner?
1. The prices of new models from the two companies are about the same, but now you have two brands to bargain hunt over. All other 60 kHz machines that I found were much more expensive.
2. There does seem to be a better supply of deals on NOS and used GemOros available. I almost went for a very clean, used 10-quart GemOro that eventually sold for $227 on the bay earlier this week. A real steal, but I decided it's too big for my setup.
3. If you're considering buying used, wouldn't you rather get one that cleaned rings and bracelets as opposed to one from a dental or medical practice (yuck)?
4. As always, patience is required for bargain hunters.
Hope this helps.
I should mention that the distributor's rep recommended against using the GemOro to clean vinyl, but the OPs experience and other information shared in this thread suggests otherwise. So, I'm in now.
Really? I wonder if we created a run on these motors for building URC machines?
Congrats on your 500 record haul. It will take some time to clean and listen to all those...
It may have been old stock or something but if you want to take the blame......
I just finished going through the garage sale LPs and had to throw away about 20% of them that were just not salvageable. I have some GREAT candidates for ultrasonic cleaning however!
UC Manufacturers
Hi Ishmail,
Glad you found a unit at a price point you liked.
I don't think the old Gemoro was made by Sonix though. I don't know what you're seeing in my pictures, but there is only a single layer, silver metal case enclosing the tank and electronics on my machine. There is no painted or coated case underneath the skin or underneath the label on the control panel.
When I first saw the picture of the unit you bought, I thought it was from the older series of L&R Quantrex UC machines. (But, there are literally dozens of companies assembling these machines.) The old L&R control panel layout and parts are actually more similar to the old Gemoro you bought, than the Sonix is. (see attached black Quantrex 200 photo) L&R uses 43khz transducers in all their lines for the most part.
The new Gemoro machines look so different, that I dare say they are either built in house, or the company went to a different supplier.
I am always skeptical of answers I get from reps on the phone or in emails. Distributors especially, handle so many product lines, it's safe to assume they generally don't know the answers to technical questions (e.g. the incorrect answer about cleaning vinyl) and learn to tell you lots of things just to get you off the phone. I'm also leery if they don't publish the specs in their manuals or online.
Perhaps you can open your unit when it arrives and get part numbers off the transducers to be sure what you have. Either way, as long as the machine powers up, you should be good to go and clean some vinyl.
BB
Hi Ishmail,
Glad you found a unit at a price point you liked.
I don't think the old Gemoro was made by Sonix though. I don't know what you're seeing in my pictures, but there is only a single layer, silver metal case enclosing the tank and electronics on my machine. There is no painted or coated case underneath the skin or underneath the label on the control panel.
When I first saw the picture of the unit you bought, I thought it was from the older series of L&R Quantrex UC machines. (But, there are literally dozens of companies assembling these machines.) The old L&R control panel layout and parts are actually more similar to the old Gemoro you bought, than the Sonix is. (see attached black Quantrex 200 photo) L&R uses 43khz transducers in all their lines for the most part.
The new Gemoro machines look so different, that I dare say they are either built in house, or the company went to a different supplier.
I am always skeptical of answers I get from reps on the phone or in emails. Distributors especially, handle so many product lines, it's safe to assume they generally don't know the answers to technical questions (e.g. the incorrect answer about cleaning vinyl) and learn to tell you lots of things just to get you off the phone. I'm also leery if they don't publish the specs in their manuals or online.
Perhaps you can open your unit when it arrives and get part numbers off the transducers to be sure what you have. Either way, as long as the machine powers up, you should be good to go and clean some vinyl.
BB
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Hi addict,
Yes, I can believe the new Gemoro uses a 60 khz transducer, but it sure would be nice if they published that. I like the look of the unit and the price seems reasonable for a US built unit.
The stainless steel outer case looks good, but be aware that drilling through the case to mount brackets will be tougher than drilling through an aluminum case. Anyone who goes the SS Gemoro route just needs to be prepared with the right punch and drill bits.
On your records, I would guess that only losing 20% to "beyond repair" is pretty good. That still leaves 400 potential goodies. What are some of the good titles you're excited about?
BB
Yes, I can believe the new Gemoro uses a 60 khz transducer, but it sure would be nice if they published that. I like the look of the unit and the price seems reasonable for a US built unit.
The stainless steel outer case looks good, but be aware that drilling through the case to mount brackets will be tougher than drilling through an aluminum case. Anyone who goes the SS Gemoro route just needs to be prepared with the right punch and drill bits.
On your records, I would guess that only losing 20% to "beyond repair" is pretty good. That still leaves 400 potential goodies. What are some of the good titles you're excited about?
BB
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I have pretty diverse musical tastes - as long as it's not country or rap I am usually pretty content. The records I scored on the weekend were primarily classic rock so it was pretty standard stuff. I did get a near mint copy of Rubber Soul but I was probably most excited to see a VG++ Chris Conner (jazz).
Now if I can finally get off the fence and get my URC build going so I can clean the other 99% of the records that were pretty grungy (not Nirvana), I will be a happy camper!
Are all of the holes that you had to drill on the top lip of the tub or did you drill any in the side of your case? If in the side did you remove the tub first?
Holes for screws
I drilled two holes in the top, upward facing lip of the stainless tub. These were the hardest to drill, but I have a good drill press for this type of task.
I also drilled two holes in the side of the case for my angle brackets. I did not remove the tub. I can control depth of the hole very easily, and I was drilling near the edge of the case. The curved corner of the tub turns away from the area where I was drilling anyway. Even if you break through unexpectedly and the drill quickly reaches the tub, you're not going to make a hole in it. Going through stainless takes time! Here's a top view, cutaway drawing showing the square-cornered case and the rounded tub. You don't need a lot of precision on this to avoid the tub. There's plenty of room in there near the curved corner of the tub.
BB
I drilled two holes in the top, upward facing lip of the stainless tub. These were the hardest to drill, but I have a good drill press for this type of task.
I also drilled two holes in the side of the case for my angle brackets. I did not remove the tub. I can control depth of the hole very easily, and I was drilling near the edge of the case. The curved corner of the tub turns away from the area where I was drilling anyway. Even if you break through unexpectedly and the drill quickly reaches the tub, you're not going to make a hole in it. Going through stainless takes time! Here's a top view, cutaway drawing showing the square-cornered case and the rounded tub. You don't need a lot of precision on this to avoid the tub. There's plenty of room in there near the curved corner of the tub.
BB
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Hi BB,
First, I should report one distinction between the GemOro and Sonix IV products that I noticed only today: the input power on the 6-quart SIVs is 180W, but only 150W on the GOs. So, clearly, the units are not identical; yours has 20% more input power. I asked the distributor for the GO's ultrasonic output power, but she didn't answer that. Although not identical, I still strongly suspect (not claim as fact) that Sonix IV either provides components or even builds the GemOro benchtops.
Here's my reasoning ...
A quote from the SIV website:
So, we know SIV does 'ghost' manufacturing, and I don't know of any other product offering 60 kHz machines at this price point. Not proof, but it starts to build the case. Then there are all the similar specs I mentioned in my previous post, especially the marketing emphasis on shared (or similar) featured technologies: auto-tune (I think SIV calls this Dynamic Power Matrix) and Power Sweep (GO) =? WaveSweep (SIV).
I might not have been clear in describing my comparison of the case designs. The main comparison is between the previous-model SIV (first image below) and the previous-model GO (second image - the one I bought). The lids look the same as do the plastic timer knobs, and both units have similar recessed control panels (only the bottom part of the old SIV control panel is inclined away from vertical, while the entire GO panel is inclined in the same plane -- a minor difference). The old SIV image does not have a heater switch to compare, but they look similar to the switches in images of other SIV models with heat.
Now if I were asked to update the look of the old SIV without completely re-engineering the case, I might design an aluminum wrapper like the one in this video and slip it over an old case. In fact, if I slipped it over the old GO case, I would get something pretty close to the 6-quart SIV case shown in the third image (control panel is also inclined in single plane). I need the cutout at the bottom-right to access the controls which are mounted on the old case, not the wrapper. I'm not sure, but BB's SIV case looks a little different; I can't see that the control panel is inclined in the same way.
Admittedly, that's a lot of speculation about SIV's design process. However, based on all of these points, including the other points in my previous post, I surmised that Sonic IV was involved in the manufacture and design of the GemOro and predicted that the GOs use 60 kHz transducers. When I called the distributor (without mentioning 60 kHz), the rep confirmed my prediction. A theory gains credibility if it is predictive ...
The current stainless steel GO (last image) does show, at a minimum, a full case redesign; the material, layout and appearance are distinct from the previous GOs. However, since its specs are pretty much the same as the old GO, and because the distributer claimed no functional improvements other than the new Turbo Mode, my guess is that the internal components haven't changed all that much.
If I haven't convinced you of my speculation, I've probably convinced you that I've lost my marbles. One could build a pretty good case for that, too. In the end, the important thing is the 60 kHz spec, not the possible family relation to Sonix IV.
Addict, thanks for confirming the 60 kHz spec independently. Let us know what you think of Turbo mode. I wonder if it's the same as the PowerPulse circuit that's prototyped in the video.
I agree with BB that it would be better if the manufacturers published complete specs, it would have saved me hours. Although, I have to admit, I started to enjoy the detective work when the plot began to thicken.
First, I should report one distinction between the GemOro and Sonix IV products that I noticed only today: the input power on the 6-quart SIVs is 180W, but only 150W on the GOs. So, clearly, the units are not identical; yours has 20% more input power. I asked the distributor for the GO's ultrasonic output power, but she didn't answer that. Although not identical, I still strongly suspect (not claim as fact) that Sonix IV either provides components or even builds the GemOro benchtops.
Here's my reasoning ...
A quote from the SIV website:
So, we know SIV does 'ghost' manufacturing, and I don't know of any other product offering 60 kHz machines at this price point. Not proof, but it starts to build the case. Then there are all the similar specs I mentioned in my previous post, especially the marketing emphasis on shared (or similar) featured technologies: auto-tune (I think SIV calls this Dynamic Power Matrix) and Power Sweep (GO) =? WaveSweep (SIV).
I might not have been clear in describing my comparison of the case designs. The main comparison is between the previous-model SIV (first image below) and the previous-model GO (second image - the one I bought). The lids look the same as do the plastic timer knobs, and both units have similar recessed control panels (only the bottom part of the old SIV control panel is inclined away from vertical, while the entire GO panel is inclined in the same plane -- a minor difference). The old SIV image does not have a heater switch to compare, but they look similar to the switches in images of other SIV models with heat.
Now if I were asked to update the look of the old SIV without completely re-engineering the case, I might design an aluminum wrapper like the one in this video and slip it over an old case. In fact, if I slipped it over the old GO case, I would get something pretty close to the 6-quart SIV case shown in the third image (control panel is also inclined in single plane). I need the cutout at the bottom-right to access the controls which are mounted on the old case, not the wrapper. I'm not sure, but BB's SIV case looks a little different; I can't see that the control panel is inclined in the same way.
Admittedly, that's a lot of speculation about SIV's design process. However, based on all of these points, including the other points in my previous post, I surmised that Sonic IV was involved in the manufacture and design of the GemOro and predicted that the GOs use 60 kHz transducers. When I called the distributor (without mentioning 60 kHz), the rep confirmed my prediction. A theory gains credibility if it is predictive ...
The current stainless steel GO (last image) does show, at a minimum, a full case redesign; the material, layout and appearance are distinct from the previous GOs. However, since its specs are pretty much the same as the old GO, and because the distributer claimed no functional improvements other than the new Turbo Mode, my guess is that the internal components haven't changed all that much.
If I haven't convinced you of my speculation, I've probably convinced you that I've lost my marbles. One could build a pretty good case for that, too. In the end, the important thing is the 60 kHz spec, not the possible family relation to Sonix IV.
Addict, thanks for confirming the 60 kHz spec independently. Let us know what you think of Turbo mode. I wonder if it's the same as the PowerPulse circuit that's prototyped in the video.
I agree with BB that it would be better if the manufacturers published complete specs, it would have saved me hours. Although, I have to admit, I started to enjoy the detective work when the plot began to thicken.