I've changed up over time. Most recently I've used a TergiKleen (a smaller, cheaper, pre-mixed amount of the Tergitol mix used for record cleaning) dilution of 10 drops per gallon of distilled water. I follow this up with two rinse/vacuum passes of distilled water with the KAB EV-1. Longer ultrasonic sessions may be more effective, or maybe it's just necessary to use different fluids for the best effect. My most recent clean with just this setup on a 24 minute bath didn't quite clean up one of my albums enough, so I'll have to try another longer Tergi/ultrasonic cycle, and if that still doesn't get it all, perhaps a regular cleaning pass with what's left of my AIVS No. 15. Regardless, a post-wash rinse/vac is ESSENTIAL.
I'm also considering doing a DIY Loricraft-style setup with my Technics 1200 that I got for cheap(ish), since I don't like the sound well enough to use as my main deck, and since I'm very limited on when I can use the obnoxiously loud vacuum for the KAB EV-1. Also, the point-style vacuum might do a better job on cleaning up lead-in grooves which always seem to have the most noise for me after cleaning. But I digress...
There are some enzymatic cleaners that can be used in ultrasonic machines, like a specific Sporicidin solution, but I don't know which item or what concentration is best. If you try the TergiKleen path, you can't mix anything else in the tank with it other than distilled water, and for gods sake don't use more than 10 drops per gallon (someone I know used more than that and his results were awful)!
Isopropyl+clean water remains the non-residue, non-surface interactive champ. Enzymes can create chemical reactions and byproducts, which depending on the contaminant, may not be things you want around polyvinyl chloride LPs. It seems rather unpredictable to me.
In my view the primary goal is to remove contaminants via mechanical action (cavitation) and dissolution in water or isopropyl, rather than chemical alteration via enzymatic action. But to each his own.
High purity Isopropyl leaves no residue and does not attack vinyl. See here for compatibility comparisons:
Vinyl chemical compatibility chart
Cheers,
B B
In my view the primary goal is to remove contaminants via mechanical action (cavitation) and dissolution in water or isopropyl, rather than chemical alteration via enzymatic action. But to each his own.
High purity Isopropyl leaves no residue and does not attack vinyl. See here for compatibility comparisons:
Vinyl chemical compatibility chart
Cheers,
B B
Thanks, high purity = 95% and up till 99%?
Reason I doubt about this is the combination with heating the water. You stated somewhere the chance for an accident is not to big, but still.... I have the heater on 20c now, but i feels hotter at times.
Hey pop,
Right you are. But if you keep the percentage of isopropyl low, you keep the risk very low per one of my old messages:
IPA risk
A little IPA goes a long way in making a good cleaning fluid in my book.
Best,
B B
Pop
I’ve settled on about 200 ml isopropyl, filling the rest of the tank with purified water -- about 6L, and add one or two drops of PhotoFlo. That’s it.
This is just over 3% isopropyl and means I’m below the flash point for IPA in water up to my max operating temp of around 120°F. You can go up to 5% if memory serves, and the flash point would be 122°F. This would still be very safe.
Here’s an early post I made on this topic. I was being ultra-conservative at 2%. But you’ll see a graph of concentration vs. flash point.
Isopropyl Flash Point
For the filter, I run it between record cleaning cycles. I’ll run it for about 3 minutes, while I remove the clean records from the tank and mount the next set of LPs to clean. The pump is off for the 10 to 12 minute cleaning cycle.
The Little Giant pump I’m using is only rated up to 120°F, so it’s pushing the limits of it’s plastic/nylon parts and shouldn’t be run continuously. There are certainly other more robust pumps that could be used more aggressively.
I'll top off the tank during a session by adding more water (and a little isopropyl if I feel like the mix can use it) to keep the level above the fill line on the tank.
I don’t try to save cleaning fluid for use on a later day. I typically like to run extended sessions and clean maybe 40-50 LPs with a batch of fluid. When I’m done that evening or day, out goes the fluid. I suppose one could try keeping the fluid around for several days if filtering, but I don’t want to mess with it, and I sense a “staleness” to the mixture after it sits that long.
Cheers,
B B
I’ve settled on about 200 ml isopropyl, filling the rest of the tank with purified water -- about 6L, and add one or two drops of PhotoFlo. That’s it.
This is just over 3% isopropyl and means I’m below the flash point for IPA in water up to my max operating temp of around 120°F. You can go up to 5% if memory serves, and the flash point would be 122°F. This would still be very safe.
Here’s an early post I made on this topic. I was being ultra-conservative at 2%. But you’ll see a graph of concentration vs. flash point.
Isopropyl Flash Point
For the filter, I run it between record cleaning cycles. I’ll run it for about 3 minutes, while I remove the clean records from the tank and mount the next set of LPs to clean. The pump is off for the 10 to 12 minute cleaning cycle.
The Little Giant pump I’m using is only rated up to 120°F, so it’s pushing the limits of it’s plastic/nylon parts and shouldn’t be run continuously. There are certainly other more robust pumps that could be used more aggressively.
I'll top off the tank during a session by adding more water (and a little isopropyl if I feel like the mix can use it) to keep the level above the fill line on the tank.
I don’t try to save cleaning fluid for use on a later day. I typically like to run extended sessions and clean maybe 40-50 LPs with a batch of fluid. When I’m done that evening or day, out goes the fluid. I suppose one could try keeping the fluid around for several days if filtering, but I don’t want to mess with it, and I sense a “staleness” to the mixture after it sits that long.
Cheers,
B B
Thanks for that chart BB. Interesting that they give ammonia an A-1 as with isopropyl alcohol, and chlorine water an A-2 (not sure what chlorine water is exactly). I'm surprised by the ammonia as I thought that would be more damaging. Hmmm.
A while ago I'd seen a recipe for cleaning fluid that included ethylene glycol, which they say is A-1! I had wondered about that.
And they list butter and buttermilk, catsup (but not ketchup, LOL) and more!
Of course, many of these would leave a residue and then some!
Interesting reading all the way through.
Carl
Thanks BB for the info. Sound like something to try. For now, I have not cleaned 40 records in a row. More like 6 on an evening or so. The idea of a fresh start sound good to me. And yes, thanks for that list... kinda funny, try cleaning with other stuff butter .
My regime for now is, 50min. cleaning with L'art du son and distilled water. heat 20c, and 1 round per 7 minutes (slowest setting on the Vinyl Stack spin kit). After that 15 minutes in a cold distilled water bath (spinning round at fastest setting Vinyl Stack kit). Than off to the Okki Nokki for a vacuum. 1 round left, one round right. Few minutes airdry and play. Absolute stunning!
So happy with this treat and its people!
butter . My regime for now is, 50min. cleaning with L'art du son and distilled water. heat 20c, and 1 round per 7 minutes (slowest setting on the Vinyl Stack spin kit). After that 15 minutes in a cold distilled water bath (spinning round at fastest setting Vinyl Stack kit). Than off to the Okki Nokki for a vacuum. 1 round left, one round right. Few minutes airdry and play. Absolute stunning!
So happy with this treat and its people!
I've changed up over time. Most recently I've used a TergiKleen (a smaller, cheaper, pre-mixed amount of the Tergitol mix used for record cleaning) dilution of 10 drops per gallon of distilled water. I follow this up with two rinse/vacuum passes of distilled water with the KAB EV-1. Longer ultrasonic sessions may be more effective, or maybe it's just necessary to use different fluids for the best effect. My most recent clean with just this setup on a 24 minute bath didn't quite clean up one of my albums enough, so I'll have to try another longer Tergi/ultrasonic cycle, and if that still doesn't get it all, perhaps a regular cleaning pass with what's left of my AIVS No. 15. Regardless, a post-wash rinse/vac is ESSENTIAL.
I'm also considering doing a DIY Loricraft-style setup with my Technics 1200 that I got for cheap(ish), since I don't like the sound well enough to use as my main deck, and since I'm very limited on when I can use the obnoxiously loud vacuum for the KAB EV-1. Also, the point-style vacuum might do a better job on cleaning up lead-in grooves which always seem to have the most noise for me after cleaning. But I digress...
There are some enzymatic cleaners that can be used in ultrasonic machines, like a specific Sporicidin solution, but I don't know which item or what concentration is best. If you try the TergiKleen path, you can't mix anything else in the tank with it other than distilled water, and for gods sake don't use more than 10 drops per gallon (someone I know used more than that and his results were awful)!
Thanks Pack,
Another nice option to consider.
Because of that, the idea of a pre-soak in enzymatic cleaners has come to my mind. Just put records in a small bath with distilled water and enzyms for an hour or so, and than off to the ultrasonic. Keeps stuff a bit cleaner and easier to refresh too. working on that idea..
@popmarter My solution is the usual mix of alcohol, destilled water, and wetting agent. sometimes in a 50/50 alcohol/water mix, sometimes a bit less, i get very very dirty records sometimes.
i'll take some pics later today. As a matter of fact i'm building a new system not something you mount on top of the machine, but a self supporting rack that goes over the machine with a loose rod for the records) because my new 10L machine is wider than the 6L i had, and the axle did not stay straight but started to hang..
i'll take some pics later today. As a matter of fact i'm building a new system not something you mount on top of the machine, but a self supporting rack that goes over the machine with a loose rod for the records) because my new 10L machine is wider than the 6L i had, and the axle did not stay straight but started to hang..
Sounds great! Looks like you are building something big, you got that many records?
(btw where do you buy the alcohol in NL? Seems like not many shop sell the 95% version (only 70%). Looking forward to the pictures!Nice find! I just finished my rinse bath, made from a 'plantenbak' (flowerbasket). You know the green ones everybody has. It has holes in it but you can close them with silicon. You can find a tube for a few euro's in the buildingmarket. Reason i choose this one, was because it has the good size and is not very deep, so you do not have to use very much water.
There are several good options for an ultrasonic cleaner. My priorities would be 60khz (or 80khz) cleaning frequency, heater, and a drain. Look at Sonix IV ST-136H or the larger ST-126H, Elma P60H, Crest CP500HT. If you want to give yourself lots of space to work with, the 3 gallon Tuttnauer CSU-3 is also an option.
Look for used or surplus units and you can find a bargain if you're willing to wait and look.
Good luck,
B B
Look for used or surplus units and you can find a bargain if you're willing to wait and look.
Good luck,
B B
Nice thread.
Ditto, Destroyer OS. I have sub 100 lp's and can't justify the cost of
the nicer USC. Since quite a few had good result from those ebay el cheapo 6L USC,
I went with that. One major missing component is the synch motor from Herbach and Rademan. Ordered more 10+ days ago and quite surprised that I haven't seen any shipment notification. So, no project in the long weekend. I will have to call them up after Monday to find out the status as their email bounced back!!
Ditto, Destroyer OS. I have sub 100 lp's and can't justify the cost of
the nicer USC. Since quite a few had good result from those ebay el cheapo 6L USC,
I went with that. One major missing component is the synch motor from Herbach and Rademan. Ordered more 10+ days ago and quite surprised that I haven't seen any shipment notification. So, no project in the long weekend. I will have to call them up after Monday to find out the status as their email bounced back!!
so far my experiences with the 40 KHz machines from china have been positive. maybe the 60/80 ones are even better, but for me the cost is just too high. and seeing the results i get from the 40K cleaners (and vacuuming!) i can't imagine where the improvvement would be. i'll dare to say that 40K plus vacuuming beats anything simply because the vacuuming part actually removes everything vfrom the grooves. if i see what my cleaner solution can look like (or what my filter looks like when its dirty, even from vinyl that doesn't look too bad) i can only guewss what that does when i just let them air dry with all that stuff going back into the grooves..;-)
pics follow from my new 10L machine setup, just got it working right. and my vinyl collection is slowly approaching 10.000, so a machine like this is a worthy investment..;-)
pics follow from my new 10L machine setup, just got it working right. and my vinyl collection is slowly approaching 10.000, so a machine like this is a worthy investment..;-)
As much as I might have liked getting a 60khz machine from Sonix of VibratorLLC, I also ended up with a 40khz machine manufactured in China. As bbftx has commented elsewhere, Chinese manufacturing can be very good but the challenge is that so much of it cuts corners or does so after a successful introduction of equipment. A friend tried to get product manufactured for him by a Chinese firm and everything worked fine as long as he was back to the factory at least once a quarter for inspection and quality control. Not every small business can do that. Apple even has trouble.
At any rate, my unit is a Trusonik 10L and the U.S. company selling these is HQ'd in New Jersey and sells through distributors only, not direct. Mine was an eBay purchase. Yesterday I ran an aluminum foil test using heavy weight Reynolds Wrap. The distribution pattern of dimpling and holes in the test sheet was very uniform and evenly distributed. There are 4 ultrasonic transducers and there was a bit heavier concentration of pattern right in the center of the tank at the center of the 4 transducers, but certainly not extreme. Of course, there's no way to know how well this machine may last, thus the reason for the cavitation test and photo of the results as of now. See image below...
At any rate, my unit is a Trusonik 10L and the U.S. company selling these is HQ'd in New Jersey and sells through distributors only, not direct. Mine was an eBay purchase. Yesterday I ran an aluminum foil test using heavy weight Reynolds Wrap. The distribution pattern of dimpling and holes in the test sheet was very uniform and evenly distributed. There are 4 ultrasonic transducers and there was a bit heavier concentration of pattern right in the center of the tank at the center of the 4 transducers, but certainly not extreme. Of course, there's no way to know how well this machine may last, thus the reason for the cavitation test and photo of the results as of now. See image below...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Some of you may be familiar with the excellent thread over on AudioKharma about record cleaning fluids that was started by a chemist, Vince1 (showing there now as Guest110). Vince provided outstanding technical guidance in a way all of us non-chemists could understand and apply. His comments were largely related to manual wet/vac cleaning, but his belief was the formulations would work fine for U/S cleaning in more dilute concentration. Several members there offered some experience with their U/S configurations.
Based on the information both here and in that AK thread, I have come up with what I will be first working with in my U/S experiments. FWIW, here is my starting point:
1) Create a 10% base solution of Tertigol and isopropyl and R/O deionized water for storage and ease of use.
(I'll be using half-and-half Tertigol S-15-3 and S-15-9 from TALAS, then topping up with 70% isoprophyl to achieve a 10% Tertigol, 60% isopropyl, 30% water base solution. No quats because I'm assuming the dilution in the U/S will be too great to make any difference. I'll make this simple by using a 4-ounce/118ml storage bottle so I can mix my base solution directly into my storage container. Add 5ml of each type of Tertigol for 10ml total to a few ml of 70% isopropyl, then fill to the 100ml pre-marked line on the bottle with 70% isopropyl. I've decided to use 70% isopropyl because it will automatically give the the final 10/60/30 percentage blend I want for the base solution. I'm using 60% isopropyl because the information in this thread said that greater than 50% alcohol was needed to keep the mix sterile in storage. Disposable 5ml transfer pipettes should make this easy to measure and mix.)
2) In the U/S tank (10 liter tank in my case), I will use R/O deionized water that I can get from a local Whole Foods Market in bulk for $0.39 per gallon.
3) The base solution will be added to the 2 gallons of water in the tank using 10ml of the base solution for a concentration of 0.13%. (per the recap provided by GPJeff in post #285 in the AK thread referenced above.)
4) I will rinse and vacuum dry the records coming out of the U/S cleaner. My rinse solution will be Type 1 Reagent grade water sourced from a local testing laboratory that is kind enough to give me a couple of gallons from time to time as needed. To the Type 1 Reagent Grade water, I will add a small amount of 95% ethanol or ethyl alcohol (denautured with methanol) as a drying agent.
(I have experimented with pure water rinsing over many years and have been convinced by my listening tests that it makes a big difference in the wet/vac cleaning process I've always done. Using Type 1 Reagent grade water makes a further improvement beyond distilled water. Adding the ethanol will be an experiment but one that is consistent with the ultrapure commercial rinse waters I've obtained elsewhere.)
So, this is my starting point for experimentation, both with ultrasonic cleaning and with the water solutions to use with it. In a month or so I should be able to report back on some results. Thanks to all!
Based on the information both here and in that AK thread, I have come up with what I will be first working with in my U/S experiments. FWIW, here is my starting point:
1) Create a 10% base solution of Tertigol and isopropyl and R/O deionized water for storage and ease of use.
(I'll be using half-and-half Tertigol S-15-3 and S-15-9 from TALAS, then topping up with 70% isoprophyl to achieve a 10% Tertigol, 60% isopropyl, 30% water base solution. No quats because I'm assuming the dilution in the U/S will be too great to make any difference. I'll make this simple by using a 4-ounce/118ml storage bottle so I can mix my base solution directly into my storage container. Add 5ml of each type of Tertigol for 10ml total to a few ml of 70% isopropyl, then fill to the 100ml pre-marked line on the bottle with 70% isopropyl. I've decided to use 70% isopropyl because it will automatically give the the final 10/60/30 percentage blend I want for the base solution. I'm using 60% isopropyl because the information in this thread said that greater than 50% alcohol was needed to keep the mix sterile in storage. Disposable 5ml transfer pipettes should make this easy to measure and mix.)
2) In the U/S tank (10 liter tank in my case), I will use R/O deionized water that I can get from a local Whole Foods Market in bulk for $0.39 per gallon.
3) The base solution will be added to the 2 gallons of water in the tank using 10ml of the base solution for a concentration of 0.13%. (per the recap provided by GPJeff in post #285 in the AK thread referenced above.)
4) I will rinse and vacuum dry the records coming out of the U/S cleaner. My rinse solution will be Type 1 Reagent grade water sourced from a local testing laboratory that is kind enough to give me a couple of gallons from time to time as needed. To the Type 1 Reagent Grade water, I will add a small amount of 95% ethanol or ethyl alcohol (denautured with methanol) as a drying agent.
(I have experimented with pure water rinsing over many years and have been convinced by my listening tests that it makes a big difference in the wet/vac cleaning process I've always done. Using Type 1 Reagent grade water makes a further improvement beyond distilled water. Adding the ethanol will be an experiment but one that is consistent with the ultrapure commercial rinse waters I've obtained elsewhere.)
So, this is my starting point for experimentation, both with ultrasonic cleaning and with the water solutions to use with it. In a month or so I should be able to report back on some results. Thanks to all!
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