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My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner
My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:04 PM   #1861
Packgrog is offline Packgrog  United States
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I've recently been noticing on some albums what seems to be something like a scorch mark on one side of the record. I suspect if it's from when I insert the record into the bath, with the line forming from the side of the record rotating up and away from the heated solution (I don't go higher than 105F). Perhaps the TergiKleen is a factor, or other solutions that I've tried that perhaps I shouldn't have (Simple Green Crystal, Sporicidin Enzyme Mold Cleaner). Perhaps letting it drip dry before my rinse/vacuum pass on my Okki Nokki is a factor.

Or perhaps the 5RPH motor is just too slow. I'm not sure. I've been tempted to try one of the faster, commercially available motors, but they're annoyingly expensive (CleanerVinyl One: $189, Vinyl Stack Ultra Sonic Spin Kit: $275). I know that bbftx's original idea with the super-slow motor was to provide a more effective cleaning by keeping the grooves submerged for a longer period of time without them drying out, but has anyone tested slow rotation against faster rotation to find a sweet spot?
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Old 11th January 2018, 03:11 PM   #1862
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Packgrog View Post
I've recently been noticing on some albums what seems to be something like a scorch mark on one side of the record. I suspect if it's from when I insert the record into the bath, with the line forming from the side of the record rotating up and away from the heated solution (I don't go higher than 105F). Perhaps the TergiKleen is a factor, or other solutions that I've tried that perhaps I shouldn't have (Simple Green Crystal, Sporicidin Enzyme Mold Cleaner). Perhaps letting it drip dry before my rinse/vacuum pass on my Okki Nokki is a factor.

Or perhaps the 5RPH motor is just too slow. I'm not sure.
It's not the temperature you're using (105 degree is just above body temp), it's not time in the bath.
It's the chemicals you've used. Simple Green Crystal contains citric acid which is not fully compatible with PVC. As temperature rises, citric acids have more detrimental affect on PVC. Simple Green in general is not a great choice because it's not designed for ultrasonic cleaning and it contains colors and fragrances. The regular version also contains chelating agents that I don't see any compatibility data on.

I'm not familiar with the Sporicidin cleaner you used, but a problem with a lot of the anti-bacterial and anti-mold products is that they are designed to leave a film residue on the surface to fight mold and bacteria for several months. I for one, think that's a bad idea on an LP. Keep the record dry and free of contaminants that mold and bacteria feed upon, and you won't have a problem.

One of the benefits of ultrasonic cleaning is to get away from all the chemicals that are used in contact cleaning. The cavitation of the ultrasonic is what provides the cleaning action instead of chemicals.

Cheers,
B B
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Old 11th January 2018, 03:28 PM   #1863
Packgrog is offline Packgrog  United States
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The Simple Green CRYSTAL specifically does not have color or fragrance. Thus the "Crystal". Beyond that, though, your point is valid. And the Sporicidin just seems a poor choice for the ultrasonic tank, despite being listed as being compatible. Still potentially usable with the vacuum RCM for really stubborn, grungy beasts, but minus heat. Hasn't seemed to have done much beyond the ultrasonic cleaning for some of my stubborn albums. I've set those aside for a Revirginizer peel, but that's so tedious that I haven't attempted it yet.

Ultrasonic with TergiKleen followed by rinse/vac does do a great job for the most part (even beyond the results that I got with Isopropyl & Photo Flo alone), but I still end up with the occasional stubborn pop (confirmed to not be groove damage, since it seems to move from one cleaning to the next). I've contemplated what others have tried in a squirt of cheap 2-in-1 shampoo/conditioner in the ultrasonic bath followed by RCM rinse, but that still seems weird.

And no, I'm not interested in the "just buy another copy" argument, as some of the records I'm PLANNING to clean are filthy but not replaceable. I'm also frustrated by the "too many steps" cleaning process, as I'm really tired of having to re-clean certain albums so many times for that one remaining pop or patch of crud. :/
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Old 11th January 2018, 04:51 PM   #1864
BendBound is offline BendBound
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Packgrog View Post
I'm really tired of having to re-clean certain albums so many times for that one remaining pop or patch of crud.
My hobby is converting vinyl to mini-lps CDRs (w/ complete artwork), so ultrasonic cleaning with its magnificent "like a new component" results is the number one draw. Up to now, I use a VPI17. Still, after a RCM cleaning, I hear an egregious pop now and again. What I have found useful is to put on a hobby magnifying visor, shine a strong light on the face of the lp, and armed with a stout pointed and wet wood toothpick, find the spot of the pop, then gently dislodge it from the groove or two it occupies. Frequently, the culprit just pops off, other times it requires a bit of gentle persuasion. Requires a bit of finesse and patience so as to not further damage the lp.

Consider that tactic instead of a total recleaning.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:13 PM   #1865
Packgrog is offline Packgrog  United States
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Yeah, might be worthwhile to attempt for the random click. I've been meaning to get a jewelers loupe for fine-tuning alignment anyway, so maybe that would work. And MAYBE a plastic toothpick would be enough to do the job without scratching anything.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:26 AM   #1866
andyr is offline andyr  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendBound View Post

I've also communicated with Louis at Vibrato on their machines, as you show. The 6 L machines do not have a drain. Only the 10 L machines have a drain. As a result, I've asked folks here who own them whether or not they use a filtering system. Since there is no drain, how do they handle that. No one has responded yet. Do you use filtering, if so how on a machine without a drain?
I have a Sonix IV 10l, 60kHz US tank (bought several years ago) - with drain - so if Louis now offers one ... I would recommend you buy it over the 6l one. (I only bought a Sonix because, back then, Vibrato didn't offer 60kHz.)

At 60kHz, you need a gap of 1" between LPs and between the end LPs on a spindle and the tank side walls (you need more of a gap at 40kHz). The extra width of a 10l tank enables you to clean 6 LPs at a time - so much more efficient than a 6l tank!

I find a drain is essential because I have rigged up a 1 micron cartridge filter (and 10lpm, 12v DC pump) to take the crap blown out of the grooves ... out of the cleaning solution.

Andy

Last edited by andyr; 12th January 2018 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 12th January 2018, 04:19 PM   #1867
ketchup is offline ketchup  United States
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Does anyone know the theoretical minimum distance that the LPs should be apart for a 40kHz machine? What exactly is this distance based on? Is it based on the the wavelength or the amplitude of a 40kHz wave in water? What are the wavelengths and amplitudes of a 40kHz wave in water? I keep hearing about the necessary gap you need between the LPs, but where is this information coming from?
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Old 15th January 2018, 02:29 PM   #1868
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Default Record Spacing

HI Ketchup,
A number of different issues come into play on spacing. The science involved is not just frequency and wavelength-related, but also has to do with the power capabilities of the ultrasonic cleaner, boundary effects of the tank walls, compliance of the material being cleaned, etc. Because of these interacting factors, basic theories can give guidance, but empirical observations of the cleaning action in the tank support what spacing works and what doesn’t.

The wavelength of a 40khz sound wave in water is about 1.5”. When that sound wave travels up from the bottom of the tank between records, the length of the path between the records (about 4”) is fairly long relative to the wavelength. That makes it more difficult for the sound energy in the wave to propagate .The closer the records are spaced together, the more wave cancellation there will be from reflections between the record surfaces and more attenuation per unit volume of the medium (the water) because you have more surface area in the same volume of water. PVC absorbs a fair amount of the energy in this arrangement.

The desktop ultrasonic cleaners most everyone is using are of modest power, and therefore you can’t load too many LPs in the tank and expect them all to get clean.

In my opinion, the best indicator of what works and what doesn’t is to observe the excitation of the water surface between LPs at different spacing. Start with 1 LP and note the surface agitation around that LP as it’s cleaned. Add a second LP so that the space between LPs and the side wall are roughly equal. Repeat by adding another LP. As the gap closes, you’ll see reduced agitation between the LPs, an indication that the sound waves are not delivering as much cleaning power to the LP surfaces.

I first posted about this effect early in my experimentation with ultrasonic cleaning using my 60 khz Sonix unit. At 1” (~ equal to 60khz wavelength in water) spacing, I still have good agitation between LPs. Adding another LP (a 4th) really diminished the cleaning action.

Here are links to some of the earlier messages related to spacing. You can use the “Search this Thread” tool to find others, but these provide the highlights of the different considerations for spacing:

Empirical Observations: Message #9
My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner

Theortetical wavelength answer: Message #798
My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner

Rule of Thumb Power answer: Message #44
My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner

Tank wall distance reference: Message #1326
My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner

Good luck,
B B
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Old 6th February 2018, 01:20 PM   #1869
VibratoLLC is offline VibratoLLC  United States
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I was recently asked if it was possible to modify one of the Chinese-made 40KHz Ultrasonic Cleaners to function at a higher frequency.
I posted my findings here:
Ultrasonic Record Cleaning

Sincerely,
Louis Steele
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:46 AM   #1870
HiddenAgenda is offline HiddenAgenda
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I wanted to check some advice on this as distilled water, is it pure enough?

Distilled Water 99.99% Ultrapure CHOOSE your size 50ml-25 Litre **High Quality** | eBay

Specification
Molecular Formula: H2O
Molecular Weight: 18.02
Boiling Point: 100 deg C
Refractive Index: n20/D 1.34(lit.)
Conductivity: Resistivity: >1MΩ.cm
pH: 5.8-7.5
Nitrite (NO2):
Nitrate (NO3):
Silicon (Si): <0.04gm/L
Silcates (SiO2): Sodium (Na): Chloride (Cl): TOC: < 0.15 mg/L
Endotoxins: TVC (2 Days): 0 cfu/ml
TVC (3 Days): 0 cfu/ml


I also bought Tergikleen, I just do not know enough about the various recipes i see online to trust I am doing a good job so this seems to have good reviews and only gripe seems to be the price. IM sure it is really expensive if you have knowledge of how to mix and make this stuff yourself but I am just an end user who just wants the best results.

TERGIKLEEN™ Record Cleaning Solution with Tergitol™ Professional Record Cleaning | eBay
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