RO water - one of those questions I wanted to ask
I was wondering what you thought of this.
I have an RO filter, the WHIRLPOOL one you can get at LOWES for a reasonable price, though the replacement filters when the RO one is replaced, can almost equal the cost of the whole thing. Today is my today for long complex sentences it seems.
The first night I used the US I used this RO water since I did not want to go to TARGET who has the cheapest distilled water. I had checked the prices in the week leading up to receiving the machine.
This is certainly not scientific in any way but I do think I got better results with the distilled water. The next night's records sounded better and were quieter. I did not mention this earlier because I thought I might be told, "well, what did you think!"
It might not be much of a savings in water cost to use RO if you end up having to change the filters more often. My RO filter element is about a year old which might strongly affect my results for cleaning though the water tastes fine. So what is acceptable for drinking might not be so good for record cleaning. Maybe one would need to replace the expensive RO cartrdge often if using the water for LP cleaning.
Please take this for what it is, an impression more than a assessment.
I was wondering what you thought of this.
I have an RO filter, the WHIRLPOOL one you can get at LOWES for a reasonable price, though the replacement filters when the RO one is replaced, can almost equal the cost of the whole thing. Today is my today for long complex sentences it seems.
The first night I used the US I used this RO water since I did not want to go to TARGET who has the cheapest distilled water. I had checked the prices in the week leading up to receiving the machine.
This is certainly not scientific in any way but I do think I got better results with the distilled water. The next night's records sounded better and were quieter. I did not mention this earlier because I thought I might be told, "well, what did you think!"
It might not be much of a savings in water cost to use RO if you end up having to change the filters more often. My RO filter element is about a year old which might strongly affect my results for cleaning though the water tastes fine. So what is acceptable for drinking might not be so good for record cleaning. Maybe one would need to replace the expensive RO cartrdge often if using the water for LP cleaning.
Please take this for what it is, an impression more than a assessment.
Happy Thanksgiving
BB and Rick,
Best wishes today to you, your families and everyone else following this thread.
I too appreciate all the great ideas and constructive discussion. This has been like a major equipment upgrade, and it's still getting better.
So lots to be thankful for, even in this (not so) little corner of our lives.
Ish
BB and Rick,
Best wishes today to you, your families and everyone else following this thread.
I too appreciate all the great ideas and constructive discussion. This has been like a major equipment upgrade, and it's still getting better.
So lots to be thankful for, even in this (not so) little corner of our lives.
Ish
High cost of distilled water; rinsing is OK
Rick, I'm surprised by your comments on the cost of distilled water. My local Walgreen's sells distilled water for $1 per gallon. Is it more expensive where you are? Walgreen's water is locally distilled, maybe that makes it cheaper here.
...
At the risk of seeming contrary, I want to put in a word in favor of rinsing. It doesn't have to be all that complicated or expensive, especially if we follow BB's suggestion of keeping the lps on a removable spindle for the whole process. [After yesterday's discussion, I'm cutting back to a max of 3 records and going back to my earlier design which does use a stationary motor. It's simpler to build and will be simpler to use. Now I'm glad my order has been delayed.]
The first attached photo shows the current state of my US cleaning station. There's the GemOro on the right with 2 foam rubber strips cut to grip the lip of the tank. These will eventually attach the deck of my rotisserie to the cleaner. For now, I use them as a rest for manually rotating my spindle and lps (SLOWLY -- still no new warping problems). To the left are third-size plastic food pans with sealing lids for a 2-stage rinse procedure.
When the US cleaning cycle finishes, I lift the spindle over and manually spin the lps in each rinse bath for 30 seconds or so before setting the lps (still on the spindle) aside to air-dry. Rinsing only adds a minute or two to the whole process.
I use $1.25 worth of distilled water for the first rinse in the clear pan and Aquafina for the final rinse in the black pan. The 8 bottles in the photos cost about $2.25; they're more than enough to fill the pan.
I expect the rinse baths to last longer than the cleaner bath. Their large volume and the small amount of fluid transferred between stages slows contamination. This makes the lids worthwhile --- they seal very well and should extend the shelf life of the baths between cleaning sessions.
I tried the 2-step rinse tonight for the first time; it seemed to work well. There was no warping and it really wasn't much extra effort. I figure it must do some good, but it would be too much work to prove that claim.
The second picture shows the cleaner, sealed with one of the food-pan lids for overnight storage of the cleaning bath. Although the fit's not perfect, it's good enough to slow evaporation and keep dust out. I've been saving the cleaner bath for several days since I've been running smaller batches so far.
Rick, I'm surprised by your comments on the cost of distilled water. My local Walgreen's sells distilled water for $1 per gallon. Is it more expensive where you are? Walgreen's water is locally distilled, maybe that makes it cheaper here.
...
At the risk of seeming contrary, I want to put in a word in favor of rinsing. It doesn't have to be all that complicated or expensive, especially if we follow BB's suggestion of keeping the lps on a removable spindle for the whole process. [After yesterday's discussion, I'm cutting back to a max of 3 records and going back to my earlier design which does use a stationary motor. It's simpler to build and will be simpler to use. Now I'm glad my order has been delayed.]
The first attached photo shows the current state of my US cleaning station. There's the GemOro on the right with 2 foam rubber strips cut to grip the lip of the tank. These will eventually attach the deck of my rotisserie to the cleaner. For now, I use them as a rest for manually rotating my spindle and lps (SLOWLY -- still no new warping problems). To the left are third-size plastic food pans with sealing lids for a 2-stage rinse procedure.
When the US cleaning cycle finishes, I lift the spindle over and manually spin the lps in each rinse bath for 30 seconds or so before setting the lps (still on the spindle) aside to air-dry. Rinsing only adds a minute or two to the whole process.
I use $1.25 worth of distilled water for the first rinse in the clear pan and Aquafina for the final rinse in the black pan. The 8 bottles in the photos cost about $2.25; they're more than enough to fill the pan.
I expect the rinse baths to last longer than the cleaner bath. Their large volume and the small amount of fluid transferred between stages slows contamination. This makes the lids worthwhile --- they seal very well and should extend the shelf life of the baths between cleaning sessions.
I tried the 2-step rinse tonight for the first time; it seemed to work well. There was no warping and it really wasn't much extra effort. I figure it must do some good, but it would be too much work to prove that claim.
The second picture shows the cleaner, sealed with one of the food-pan lids for overnight storage of the cleaning bath. Although the fit's not perfect, it's good enough to slow evaporation and keep dust out. I've been saving the cleaner bath for several days since I've been running smaller batches so far.
I am very cheap!
Ishmail,
My best to you for Thanksgiving.
TARGET sells it here for eighty nine cents but if one is not filtering, and since a gallon is used (almost) for a single cleaning session, that could get expensive.
With the filter in place and a weekend day for an extended session the cost is nothing to be concerned about. But I am cheap - rather use the money for LPs and such.
Take care,
Ishmail,
My best to you for Thanksgiving.
TARGET sells it here for eighty nine cents but if one is not filtering, and since a gallon is used (almost) for a single cleaning session, that could get expensive.
With the filter in place and a weekend day for an extended session the cost is nothing to be concerned about. But I am cheap - rather use the money for LPs and such.
Take care,
Water / TDS
I'm not familiar with the Whirlpool RO per se, but a well functioning RO system should result in water output with only 5% to 10% of the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) present in your source water. In other words, if the TDS of your tap water is 100 ppm, a functioning RO system should spit out water with 5 to 10ppm of TDS. Anything under 10 is regarded as "pure" water, but anything under 50 will taste very clean generally. If you don't have one, you can get an inexpensive TDS meter to monitor your RO water to decide when to change your filters and membrane. Under 10ppm should be excellent for cleaning LPs, and anything under 50ppm should still work very well.
Distilled water should measure 0 to 1.5 ppm. Aquafina usually has the lowest TDS of bottled waters, but is generally in the 2 to 10 ppm range. Since it's more expensive than distilled and the TDS is worse (although very low in absolute level), I don't see the point in using Aquafina for an LP cleaning process.
B B
I'm not familiar with the Whirlpool RO per se, but a well functioning RO system should result in water output with only 5% to 10% of the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) present in your source water. In other words, if the TDS of your tap water is 100 ppm, a functioning RO system should spit out water with 5 to 10ppm of TDS. Anything under 10 is regarded as "pure" water, but anything under 50 will taste very clean generally. If you don't have one, you can get an inexpensive TDS meter to monitor your RO water to decide when to change your filters and membrane. Under 10ppm should be excellent for cleaning LPs, and anything under 50ppm should still work very well.
Distilled water should measure 0 to 1.5 ppm. Aquafina usually has the lowest TDS of bottled waters, but is generally in the 2 to 10 ppm range. Since it's more expensive than distilled and the TDS is worse (although very low in absolute level), I don't see the point in using Aquafina for an LP cleaning process.
B B
Warping problem diagnosed?
I had another warped record last night, even with slow rotation, but I think I've discovered the cause. While checking the accuracy of my thermometer (it's OK), I found a 30-degree temperature difference between the bottom of the tank and a hot layer just below the surface. This gradient persists after the heater is shut off, and neither ultrasonic action nor lp rotation mixes it away. Until now, I've been measuring too deep to pick up the actual maximum temperature which could easily be high enough to cause warping or even melt the vinyl. The GemOro machine has its heating elements on the side of the tank, not the bottom. This probably explains why there's not much convective mixing.
All this is consistent with Rick's report of melting near the surface of the bath. It also explains why turning the lps a quarter turn every 2 minutes is worse than continuous rotation: the same strip of vinyl stays in the hot layer and cooks for 2 minutes at a time.
A little bit of stirring yields a nearly uniform temperature distribution, so I'll stir the bath before taking a temperature reading, and more important, before inserting my records from here on. I'll continue to watch for warping, but this should cure the problem. Perhaps circulation from filtering will handle this automatically.
Has anyone else found a similar temperature difference? It's probably worth checking whether your temperature readings are a reliable measure of the hottest part of the bath.
I had another warped record last night, even with slow rotation, but I think I've discovered the cause. While checking the accuracy of my thermometer (it's OK), I found a 30-degree temperature difference between the bottom of the tank and a hot layer just below the surface. This gradient persists after the heater is shut off, and neither ultrasonic action nor lp rotation mixes it away. Until now, I've been measuring too deep to pick up the actual maximum temperature which could easily be high enough to cause warping or even melt the vinyl. The GemOro machine has its heating elements on the side of the tank, not the bottom. This probably explains why there's not much convective mixing.
All this is consistent with Rick's report of melting near the surface of the bath. It also explains why turning the lps a quarter turn every 2 minutes is worse than continuous rotation: the same strip of vinyl stays in the hot layer and cooks for 2 minutes at a time.
A little bit of stirring yields a nearly uniform temperature distribution, so I'll stir the bath before taking a temperature reading, and more important, before inserting my records from here on. I'll continue to watch for warping, but this should cure the problem. Perhaps circulation from filtering will handle this automatically.
Has anyone else found a similar temperature difference? It's probably worth checking whether your temperature readings are a reliable measure of the hottest part of the bath.
Yes, since heat rises, I measure near the top of the tank on the side nearest the heater. Keep it 110-120°F or lower and you shouldn't have any problems. Glad you have things sorted out now to keep your LPs flat!
I'm still amazed by the YouTube guy who uses steam to clean his LPs. They clearly warp in his video, but flatten back out almost immediately once the steam dissipates.
Cheers,
B B
I'm still amazed by the YouTube guy who uses steam to clean his LPs. They clearly warp in his video, but flatten back out almost immediately once the steam dissipates.
Cheers,
B B
BB, those warps in the steam-cleaning are the stuff of nightmares.
What surprised me in my setup was the stratification and wide range of temperatures I found in the US bath. We usually heat water from the bottom, and convective circulation provides reasonably good mixing. But according to one diagram I've seen online, the GemOro heaters are mounted a little above mid-depth on the front side of the tank. This unusual position explains the stratification.
Here are some measurements that show it. Starting from 69 F, I heated the bath until the reading in the top 1/2-inch of the bath reached 120 F. Then I turned off the heat and took temp. readings at various depths (assuming the sensor occupies the last inch of the temperature probe). Then I stirred the bath for 10 seconds and took new readings at many locations. These were all the same value, that is, the average temperature.
______________________________________________
Depth (in) Temp. (F)
0-1/2 120
1-2 113
2-3 111
3-4 89
4-5 78
All locations after 10 s stirring (average temp.) : 105 F
______________________________________________
The average temperature is about 15 degrees below the target value, and the reading is about 30 degrees low at the greatest depth of lps, say 3 to 4-inches. If your machine produces similar stratification, then I think stirring is required to get a representative temperature reading and to ensure effective cleaning throughout the bath.
Rick, I started with a Fluke Comark T220/3 - Bi-Therm Pocket Thermometer - 0°F to 220°F, $5.20 from Zesco.com. It's OK, nothing special. I'm switching now to a Polder 362-90 digital timer/thermometer that I scavenged from a kitchen drawer. It has some useful features: alarm at target temp, count-down timer, large digital readout, and magnetic mounting (on US cleaner's case). The Polder is available on Amazon for $15.97, but according to some reviews, its quality has fallen in recent years. ThermoWorks Cooking Thermometer/Timer ($19 on Amazon) is the same deal. These are intended for meat, but so far it's working well in the US bath. I think it should be OK if I don't immerse the top end of the probe.
While I'm at it, here's info on the food pans and lids I bought for rinsing, storage, etc.
Zesco.com:
Cambro 36CW - Third Size x 6" Deep - Cold Food Pan (Clear, Black) $6.73
Cambro 30CWGL-135 - Third Size Transport Cover - Camwear GripLids; $8.47
So the initial investment for rinsing isn't very big. I also think the rinse water needs to be changed much less frequently than the US bath.
What surprised me in my setup was the stratification and wide range of temperatures I found in the US bath. We usually heat water from the bottom, and convective circulation provides reasonably good mixing. But according to one diagram I've seen online, the GemOro heaters are mounted a little above mid-depth on the front side of the tank. This unusual position explains the stratification.
Here are some measurements that show it. Starting from 69 F, I heated the bath until the reading in the top 1/2-inch of the bath reached 120 F. Then I turned off the heat and took temp. readings at various depths (assuming the sensor occupies the last inch of the temperature probe). Then I stirred the bath for 10 seconds and took new readings at many locations. These were all the same value, that is, the average temperature.
______________________________________________
Depth (in) Temp. (F)
0-1/2 120
1-2 113
2-3 111
3-4 89
4-5 78
All locations after 10 s stirring (average temp.) : 105 F
______________________________________________
The average temperature is about 15 degrees below the target value, and the reading is about 30 degrees low at the greatest depth of lps, say 3 to 4-inches. If your machine produces similar stratification, then I think stirring is required to get a representative temperature reading and to ensure effective cleaning throughout the bath.
Rick, I started with a Fluke Comark T220/3 - Bi-Therm Pocket Thermometer - 0°F to 220°F, $5.20 from Zesco.com. It's OK, nothing special. I'm switching now to a Polder 362-90 digital timer/thermometer that I scavenged from a kitchen drawer. It has some useful features: alarm at target temp, count-down timer, large digital readout, and magnetic mounting (on US cleaner's case). The Polder is available on Amazon for $15.97, but according to some reviews, its quality has fallen in recent years. ThermoWorks Cooking Thermometer/Timer ($19 on Amazon) is the same deal. These are intended for meat, but so far it's working well in the US bath. I think it should be OK if I don't immerse the top end of the probe.
While I'm at it, here's info on the food pans and lids I bought for rinsing, storage, etc.
Zesco.com:
Cambro 36CW - Third Size x 6" Deep - Cold Food Pan (Clear, Black) $6.73
Cambro 30CWGL-135 - Third Size Transport Cover - Camwear GripLids; $8.47
So the initial investment for rinsing isn't very big. I also think the rinse water needs to be changed much less frequently than the US bath.
Thermometer / TDS meter
Rick, One option is to get a combo Thermometer / Total Dissolved Solids meter that can also test the purity of the water you use in your cleaning solution (and test your RO drinking water setup).
The inexpensive ones run $20. Here's one:
Amazon.com: HM Digital TDS-3 Handheld Meter TDS Tester Model: Home Improvement
There are some knockoffs on amazon that don't carry the HM logo. I'd stick with the name brand meter.
B B
Rick, One option is to get a combo Thermometer / Total Dissolved Solids meter that can also test the purity of the water you use in your cleaning solution (and test your RO drinking water setup).
The inexpensive ones run $20. Here's one:
Amazon.com: HM Digital TDS-3 Handheld Meter TDS Tester Model: Home Improvement
There are some knockoffs on amazon that don't carry the HM logo. I'd stick with the name brand meter.
B B
BB, I checked the HM website here <http://www.tdsmeter.com/what-is#what> where it says that they only detect dissolved ions, etc. in water, but specifically not suspended particles. Aren't suspended particles our primary concern? There might well be a correlation between the two, is that what you have in mind? Would it also detect ions from the surfactant we are using?
TDS Meter just for the pure water, before mixing your solution
For the pure water you're putting in your cleaning solution, there will be no suspended particles. But there are dissolved solids in bottled water, RO water, DI water, and trace amounts in distilled water. This is what a TDS meter would measure.
If Rick was going to use his RO water for his LP cleaning, the TDS meter would be very handy. Same for you if you want to compare Aquafina to less expensive distilled water. It would also help you measure TDS in your rinse tank. You might find that the rinse water you leave in containers will pick up some TDS over time. You might be surprised how much --- it depends in large part how that water is being stored (container type and exposure to normal air).
A TDS meter can't be used to measure a cleaning solution with isopropyl and/or surfactants in it. A good filter setup will remove the vast majority of suspended particles from your cleaning solution down to submicron in size. A carbon filter can remove many TDS components.
This is a good article on water from the tmasc ultrasonics website
DI Water Specifications.htm
B B
For the pure water you're putting in your cleaning solution, there will be no suspended particles. But there are dissolved solids in bottled water, RO water, DI water, and trace amounts in distilled water. This is what a TDS meter would measure.
If Rick was going to use his RO water for his LP cleaning, the TDS meter would be very handy. Same for you if you want to compare Aquafina to less expensive distilled water. It would also help you measure TDS in your rinse tank. You might find that the rinse water you leave in containers will pick up some TDS over time. You might be surprised how much --- it depends in large part how that water is being stored (container type and exposure to normal air).
A TDS meter can't be used to measure a cleaning solution with isopropyl and/or surfactants in it. A good filter setup will remove the vast majority of suspended particles from your cleaning solution down to submicron in size. A carbon filter can remove many TDS components.
This is a good article on water from the tmasc ultrasonics website
DI Water Specifications.htm
B B
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Thanks, BB. I misunderstood the purpose you had in mind. Rather than check one measure (TDS) of the quality of the "clean" water we start with, I thought it was intended in part intended to help decide when to change the US cleaner's bath.
That's an interesting comment about the rinse water, especially the final rinse. Purity as measured by TDS content would be significant there. I wonder, though, if this device has enough resolution to distinguish "ultra-distilled" from common distilled water. Several of the user reviews state that they get a 0 reading for distilled water, which is presumably the common variety.
That's an interesting comment about the rinse water, especially the final rinse. Purity as measured by TDS content would be significant there. I wonder, though, if this device has enough resolution to distinguish "ultra-distilled" from common distilled water. Several of the user reviews state that they get a 0 reading for distilled water, which is presumably the common variety.
Rick, Aquafina specs their water at 4 ppm TDS. So, you're right, no reason to use it over distilled. Another audiophile myth popped. I'll just use distilled for rinsing from here on. Glad to save the money and not have to deal with all those bottles. Thanks for your input.
I'm currently storing my final rinse water in a black polycarbonate food pan with a very tight, 3-gasket sealable lid. There's less than an inch of air space inside. I'm not up to speed on the chemistry of all this, so I've no idea what that implies. Storage time would be a matter of days to a week or so. Maybe time spent on the shelf at the store in the original gallon container might be important. I guess this is where the TDS meter would be useful.
I'm currently storing my final rinse water in a black polycarbonate food pan with a very tight, 3-gasket sealable lid. There's less than an inch of air space inside. I'm not up to speed on the chemistry of all this, so I've no idea what that implies. Storage time would be a matter of days to a week or so. Maybe time spent on the shelf at the store in the original gallon container might be important. I guess this is where the TDS meter would be useful.
Filters
Shaun, Depends on the type and brand. If a supplier doesn't supply specs for an inline system, the filters are probably 20 to 30 micron at best.
Are you thinking about this to create pure water from tap water for your cleaning solution, or for filtering the cleaning solution after use?
To create "pure" water from tap water, you need multistage filtering. This gets more expensive than just buying distilled water. For example, the best kitchen type drinking pithcer filter is the ZeroWater. But each $15 filter cartridge only cleans an average of 30 gallons of water before it needs to be replaced. And the output water isn't as pure as distilled water. Zerowater does not remove bacteria from tap water.
ZEROWATER Drinking Water Filters
For filtering your cleaning solution, my setup is shown in message #121 in this thread --- URC Filter Setup.
You can use inexpensive 5" or 10" filter housings from allfilters.com These are $10-$20. Replacement filters are only $3 to $8 each and will last for up to hundreds, perhaps thousands of gallons. You can buy 1 micron polypropylene filters or carbon filters down to about 0.5 microns. But, the carbon filters probably need a more expensive pump that can deliver more pressure. Again, you reach a point where it's cheaper to just buy more cleaning solution.
A cleaning solution filtration setup will extend the life of the cleaning solution, but not an infinite amount.
Cheers,
B B
Shaun, Depends on the type and brand. If a supplier doesn't supply specs for an inline system, the filters are probably 20 to 30 micron at best.
Are you thinking about this to create pure water from tap water for your cleaning solution, or for filtering the cleaning solution after use?
To create "pure" water from tap water, you need multistage filtering. This gets more expensive than just buying distilled water. For example, the best kitchen type drinking pithcer filter is the ZeroWater. But each $15 filter cartridge only cleans an average of 30 gallons of water before it needs to be replaced. And the output water isn't as pure as distilled water. Zerowater does not remove bacteria from tap water.
ZEROWATER Drinking Water Filters
For filtering your cleaning solution, my setup is shown in message #121 in this thread --- URC Filter Setup.
You can use inexpensive 5" or 10" filter housings from allfilters.com These are $10-$20. Replacement filters are only $3 to $8 each and will last for up to hundreds, perhaps thousands of gallons. You can buy 1 micron polypropylene filters or carbon filters down to about 0.5 microns. But, the carbon filters probably need a more expensive pump that can deliver more pressure. Again, you reach a point where it's cheaper to just buy more cleaning solution.
A cleaning solution filtration setup will extend the life of the cleaning solution, but not an infinite amount.
Cheers,
B B
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Filter Care
Just in case it's not obvious for anyone setting up a filtration system for their URC, I better point out that you need to drain your filter and pump, and open the filter housing to let the cartridge dry out when you're not using the system. Bacteria will grow if you leave the system wet when you put it away. This is also my concern about leaving cleaning solution or rinse water overnight, or for days on end.
Just in case it's not obvious for anyone setting up a filtration system for their URC, I better point out that you need to drain your filter and pump, and open the filter housing to let the cartridge dry out when you're not using the system. Bacteria will grow if you leave the system wet when you put it away. This is also my concern about leaving cleaning solution or rinse water overnight, or for days on end.