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Old 11th September 2012, 02:07 PM   #61
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Thanks, BB. I've been looking at another brand that is so similar to the Sonix IV that I guessed it was also 60 kHz (almost no specs available on line). I made an inquiry, and sure enough it is 60 kHz. I didn't ask directly, but I assume it's a rebranded product.

I also asked about the heat (again, no user control) and was told that it's preset to maintain the bath at 140 - 170 F which is supposed to be optimal for the intended application. This range is consistent with your experience, and it suggests that there's a thermostat inside. If you can find the thermostat and reset it to a lower range you might enjoy your Sonix even more.
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Old 11th September 2012, 02:31 PM   #62
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Thanks, Ishmail. What's the brand of the version you're looking at?

I hear you on the temps, and understand you can go that warm with the vinyl. I'm more worried about my hands above 130 and personally don't want to be handling records that hot. That's all up to the individual of course.

It would be interesting to look and see exactly where the thermostat sensor is located. As I mentioned, the tank below the waterline can just be warm, while the exposed tank wall gets scalding hot!
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Old 11th September 2012, 03:13 PM   #63
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Quote:
Thanks, Ishmail. What's the brand of the version you're looking at?
I'll answer this in a day or two since I'm likely to bid on one soon. I'm happy to share after that.

Quote:
I hear you on the temps, and understand you can go that warm with the vinyl. I'm more worried about my hands above 130 and personally don't want to be handling records that hot. That's all up to the individual of course.
I meant that 140 - 170 F is optimal for the intended purpose that these machines are designed for and marketed to, not necessarily for vinyl. I think your practice of 100 - 105 F is about right for our use. At 140 - 170, the vinyl would likely warp visibly. The steam-cleaning crowd would say that LPs recover their flat shape on cooling, but I'm not going there. I agree; who wants to deal with that level of heat, anyway? I'd sacrifice some cleaning power for the safety of a lower temperature range.

If I can't adjust the thermostat, I'd control the temp manually, just as you do. It's probably a good idea to use a kitchen thermometer to monitor the temp, in any case, since the ultrasonic energy alone can raise the bath temperature.
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Old 11th September 2012, 04:09 PM   #64
Shaun is offline Shaun  South Africa
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Originally Posted by bbftx View Post
I started down the path of looking for transducers to build my own unit. There are 80 kHz and higher frequency units available. I'd go 80 or 120 khz if I was to build my own.
BB, what's your reasoning wrt your preferred frequency range?
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Old 11th September 2012, 04:36 PM   #65
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Default Frequency Choice

Hi Shaun,

Here are a couple of links that have guided my thinking (there are others too):

Ultrasonic Cleaning and Washing Systems
Questions and answers about Ultrasonic Cleaning

Here's a useful graph of frequency vs particle size and effectiveness of removal. As a frame of reference, atmospheric dust can come in an enormous range of sizes --- .001 microns up to 40 microns or more. Tobacco smoke particles can be .01 to 4 microns. Note how much better 80khz is than 40kHz at the smaller particle sizes. 80kHz looks about optimal to me. 60kHz is almost as good if you just interpolate the 40 and 80 curves, certainly better than 40kHz.
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File Type: jpg UC Freq vs removal.jpg (93.2 KB, 843 views)

Last edited by bbftx; 11th September 2012 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 11th September 2012, 04:47 PM   #66
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Timely discussion on choice of frequency for the build. I am chomping at the bit to get my build underway but it seems like a 60Khz machine is not in my budget ($400) so I am hesitating on pulling the trigger on a 40Khz unit.

I found this simplistic explanation of the impacts of the different frequencies:

Research by B.P. Richards et al at GEC Marconi and the EMPF Laboratory suggests four parameters for the safe cleaning of PCBs using ultrasonic technology:

The ultrasonic frequency should be 40 kHz or higher. The lower the frequency the more aggressive the ultrasonic cavitation becomes.
"Sweep" or "Alternating" frequency technology be used to prevent "hot spots" in the cleaning bath.
The "Power Density" should be 10 watts per liter or less (referred to as Low Power Density). The higher the power density the stronger the "scrubbing" action (the electrical output of the ultrasonic generator(s) divided by the total liters of cleaning solution in the bath).
The ultrasonic wash cycle should be 10 minutes or less.
Today, most all ultrasonic cleaning systems incorporate the first two parameters and the wash cycle time is easy to control. The "power density" is the variable that may be the cause.

Most ultrasonic cleaning systems are made to be used with generic cleaning chemistries and therefore need to incorporate the highest power density that is economically feasible.

Comparing the ultrasonic frequency and power density to a manual "scrub brush" application, the frequency is similar to the type ob brush used. 20 kHz would be equal to a wire brush and 60 kHz would be equal to a toothbrush. 40 kHz is somewhere in between.

The power density is equal to the amount of exertion placed of the brush. High power density (> 10 watts per liter) is like scrubbing hard using two hands. Low power density (< 10 watts per liter) is like scrubbing lightly using only one hand.

Therefore, a combination of low frequency and high power density provides the most aggressive ultrasonic cleaning action and high frequency and low power density provides a more gentle cleaning action.
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Old 11th September 2012, 04:57 PM   #67
Shaun is offline Shaun  South Africa
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I think I also got to 80kHz, based on the particle sizes shown here http://www.synthgear.com/2010/audio-...on-microscope/ , but dialed it back to 60kHz as a compromise based on considerations of efficiency vs availability (most are 40kHz), and the fact that 40kHz UCs are being used successfully in this application.

Thanks for the links.
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Old 13th September 2012, 02:30 AM   #68
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Default Latest Parts List for BB's Ultrasonic Cleaner

I updated my parts list, including adding a few explanatory notes.
Version as of Sep 12, 2012 attached.
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File Type: pdf BB urc parts list Sep2012.pdf (44.3 KB, 249 views)
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Old 13th September 2012, 03:44 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by bbftx View Post
I updated my parts list, including adding a few explanatory notes.
Version as of Sep 12, 2012 attached.
Thanks again BB . Very helpful!

I have started to assemble the parts but am still on the fence about whether to hold out for a 60KHz machine or go with a 40KHz at half the price. I scored a collection of 500 albums at a garage sale last weekend so I am kind of impatient to get my URC up and running so I am leaning towards the 40KHz.

I tried to order the motor from Herbach & Rademan today but they are back-ordered on the 5 & 6 RPH motors for several weeks at least. Any other recomendations or opinions?

Again thanks for all of your help. It is much appreciated!
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Old 13th September 2012, 04:14 AM   #70
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Originally Posted by Vinyladdict View Post
Thanks again BB . Very helpful!
I tried to order the motor from Herbach & Rademan today but they are back-ordered on the 5 & 6 RPH motors for several weeks at least. Any other recomendations or opinions?
Really? I wonder if we created a run on these motors for building URC machines?
I've also noticed Sonix IV has pulled their UC units off of their eBay storefront. They've been up there for at least 2 years, and were the cheapest way to get the Sonix machines.
Clock-Keys.com is one place that has the Sonix machines at reasonable prices, although not as cheap as Sonix sold them. Part no. at Clock-keys is 18317 for the Sonix unit without heater.

Don't know of other places to get the motors offhand.

Congrats on your 500 record haul. It will take some time to clean and listen to all those...
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