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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:03 PM   #261
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Pano,
It was just pointed out on the Blowtorch thread that alcohol may over time leach the plasticizer's out of the vinyl. Has anyone seen any evidence of this so far? Micro-pitting of the surface is spoken of though this may be a normal aging process of vinyl and out-gassing of any plasticizer added.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:08 PM   #262
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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That is beyond my ken. Maybe we should ask SY, AKA "Dr Plastic"
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:09 PM   #263
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Now I'm Dr. Lube.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:28 PM   #264
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Even better! Does washing vinyl remove some special lube that it needs for playback? Would ultrasonic washing in the rather mild solutions referenced in this thread do much harm?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 04:00 PM   #265
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Pano,
I am not a chemist so I can't honestly answer the question and that is why I asked if anyone has seen any evidence of this. I have not looked at the formulation of vinyl used in records to verify that there really is any plasticizer even in the formulation, that may be a bogus statement in whole. Sy could know something about this, I would have to go to one of my plastic material sources to look at this. I never molded vinyl so it is out of my purview of information.

ps. It wouldn't be used as a lubricant I wouldn't think. It would be used to keep the vinyl from becoming very stiff or brittle but as I said I don't know vinyl chemistry.
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Old 4th March 2013, 06:00 AM   #266
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Default Within reason, alcohol should not be a problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Pano,
It was just pointed out on the Blowtorch thread that alcohol may over time leach the plasticizer's out of the vinyl. Has anyone seen any evidence of this so far? Micro-pitting of the surface is spoken of though this may be a normal aging process of vinyl and out-gassing of any plasticizer added.
My opinion: At reasonable concentrations, say 10% or less, alcohol should not pose a problem in record cleaning fluids. We're talking minutes of exposure in typical usage, and BB's formula, for example, is far below 10%. On the other hand, I would not leave a record soaking in an alcohol bath for an extended period. We should avoid alcohol preparations with additives that might leave a residue  the purer the better, but the alcohol itself leaves no residue. In my opinion, if low-level exposure to alcohol damages vinyl at all, it is negligible and outweighed by the improvement to cleaning that the alcohol might offer. Of course, alcohol on lacquer 78s is another matter.

Several of the most respected commercially available record cleaning fluids as well as many common home-brews contain alcohol. Thousands of people use these, but I'm not aware of any reports that these have damaged records in a measurable way. I've read warnings against "micropits" from alcohol and from ultrasonic cleaning as well. But these seem to come from people who don't use the material or process in question and never have. For example, I've never read a report of an actual observation of a micropit, let alone seen a posted image of one.

Still, some people prefer to avoid alcohol, and that's OK. I recently tried Alconox w and w/o alcohol, and didn't find a major difference either way. If that result holds with whichever surfactant/detergent I settle on, I'll omit the alcohol.
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Old 4th March 2013, 06:59 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Ethylene glycol is used in anti-freeze in your car. Propylene glycol is used in food all the time. Either one has a fairly high viscosity so I am not sure why you would use them and they are both sticky and oily but would work as a lubricant. I would think that there are any number of surfactants that could be used to break the surface tension of the dirt you are trying to remove. DI water and alcohol at a low concentration would be the rest of the solution. If I remember correctly one of the surfactants used in dish washer detergent is a little bit of cyanide.
Agreed. I think we are better off without either of these glycols or any other sticky, viscous lubricants on our records. Clean, good-quality vinyl is very quiet without added lubricants. Proper cleaning, with or without ultrasound, only makes it quieter in my experience.

By the way, due to its sweet taste and high toxicity, EG is implicated in the early deaths of household pets and other critters, so PG-based automotive antifreeze products are available, such as Prestone Low Tox. PG is FDA approved as safe, and is ubiquitous in processed foods and many household products.
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Old 4th March 2013, 08:59 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Pano,
It was just pointed out on the Blowtorch thread that alcohol may over time leach the plasticizer's out of the vinyl. Has anyone seen any evidence of this so far? Micro-pitting of the surface is spoken of though this may be a normal aging process of vinyl and out-gassing of any plasticizer added.
Why would posters on a thread dedicated to a particular (very fine-sounding) preamp know anything about what is and is not good for vinyl?

If you leave IPA pooled on the LP surface for 24 hours or so ... maybe it will do some damage to the vinyl? Used as part of a record-cleaning fluid, and resting on the surface of the LP for a max of 2 minutes before it gets sucked off - absolutely not.

I have used 30-50% IPA in my RCM fluid for 25 years - and there is no "damage" that I can hear.


Regards,

Andy
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Old 4th March 2013, 10:28 AM   #269
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Andyr,
Because some of those people are recording engineers and chemists and PhD's in physics and such. I happen to be a person who has had a plastics molding company, so I asked if anyone has seen this affect. I didn't answer this myself as I haven't looked up the chemical makeup of the vinyl used in production of albums. Do you know for sure if there are plastisizer'r used in the formula, I don't but could find out. I accept your opinion that you have never seen an effect, I believe that. Doesn't mean there is no effect, but if you can't hear it and your albums are fine that is great. I know one other person on the site here that I will ask directly as I know he like me is and was in the plastics industry if there could be a long term problem. I doubted it myself but someone brought it up, so I asked for confirmation by anyone who could provide that information, nothing more. Just because they are not on this thread does not discount the information about the interaction of chemicals and vinyl albums.
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Old 4th March 2013, 10:30 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishmail View Post
My opinion: At reasonable concentrations, say 10% or less, alcohol should not pose a problem in record cleaning fluids.
Agreed. Dilute solutions are the key.

The lubricants for record vinyl are internal (waxes and fatty esters), not externally applied. If a surface layer is stripped off, more migrate to the surface.
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