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Old 21st November 2012, 08:49 PM   #181
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Default RO water - one of those questions I wanted to ask

I was wondering what you thought of this.

I have an RO filter, the WHIRLPOOL one you can get at LOWES for a reasonable price, though the replacement filters when the RO one is replaced, can almost equal the cost of the whole thing. Today is my today for long complex sentences it seems.

The first night I used the US I used this RO water since I did not want to go to TARGET who has the cheapest distilled water. I had checked the prices in the week leading up to receiving the machine.

This is certainly not scientific in any way but I do think I got better results with the distilled water. The next night's records sounded better and were quieter. I did not mention this earlier because I thought I might be told, "well, what did you think!"

It might not be much of a savings in water cost to use RO if you end up having to change the filters more often. My RO filter element is about a year old which might strongly affect my results for cleaning though the water tastes fine. So what is acceptable for drinking might not be so good for record cleaning. Maybe one would need to replace the expensive RO cartrdge often if using the water for LP cleaning.

Please take this for what it is, an impression more than a assessment.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 02:13 PM   #182
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Default Happy Thanksgiving

BB and Rick,

Best wishes today to you, your families and everyone else following this thread.

I too appreciate all the great ideas and constructive discussion. This has been like a major equipment upgrade, and it's still getting better.

So lots to be thankful for, even in this (not so) little corner of our lives.

Ish
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Old 22nd November 2012, 02:40 PM   #183
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Default High cost of distilled water; rinsing is OK

Rick, I'm surprised by your comments on the cost of distilled water. My local Walgreen's sells distilled water for $1 per gallon. Is it more expensive where you are? Walgreen's water is locally distilled, maybe that makes it cheaper here.

...

At the risk of seeming contrary, I want to put in a word in favor of rinsing. It doesn't have to be all that complicated or expensive, especially if we follow BB's suggestion of keeping the lps on a removable spindle for the whole process. [After yesterday's discussion, I'm cutting back to a max of 3 records and going back to my earlier design which does use a stationary motor. It's simpler to build and will be simpler to use. Now I'm glad my order has been delayed.]

The first attached photo shows the current state of my US cleaning station. There's the GemOro on the right with 2 foam rubber strips cut to grip the lip of the tank. These will eventually attach the deck of my rotisserie to the cleaner. For now, I use them as a rest for manually rotating my spindle and lps (SLOWLY -- still no new warping problems). To the left are third-size plastic food pans with sealing lids for a 2-stage rinse procedure.

When the US cleaning cycle finishes, I lift the spindle over and manually spin the lps in each rinse bath for 30 seconds or so before setting the lps (still on the spindle) aside to air-dry. Rinsing only adds a minute or two to the whole process.

I use $1.25 worth of distilled water for the first rinse in the clear pan and Aquafina for the final rinse in the black pan. The 8 bottles in the photos cost about $2.25; they're more than enough to fill the pan.

I expect the rinse baths to last longer than the cleaner bath. Their large volume and the small amount of fluid transferred between stages slows contamination. This makes the lids worthwhile --- they seal very well and should extend the shelf life of the baths between cleaning sessions.

I tried the 2-step rinse tonight for the first time; it seemed to work well. There was no warping and it really wasn't much extra effort. I figure it must do some good, but it would be too much work to prove that claim.

The second picture shows the cleaner, sealed with one of the food-pan lids for overnight storage of the cleaning bath. Although the fit's not perfect, it's good enough to slow evaporation and keep dust out. I've been saving the cleaner bath for several days since I've been running smaller batches so far.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 05:52 PM   #184
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Default I am very cheap!

Ishmail,

My best to you for Thanksgiving.

TARGET sells it here for eighty nine cents but if one is not filtering, and since a gallon is used (almost) for a single cleaning session, that could get expensive.

With the filter in place and a weekend day for an extended session the cost is nothing to be concerned about. But I am cheap - rather use the money for LPs and such.

Take care,
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Old 23rd November 2012, 06:41 AM   #185
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OK, Rick, I see your point. A new gallon every session would add up, not to mention the inconvenience of lugging so much water home. Fortunately, there are ways around this problem.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 02:20 PM   #186
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Default Water / TDS

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
I have an RO filter, the WHIRLPOOL one you can get at LOWES for a reasonable price, though the replacement filters when the RO one is replaced, can almost equal the cost of the whole thing.

This is certainly not scientific in any way but I do think I got better results with the distilled water. The next night's records sounded better and were quieter.

It might not be much of a savings in water cost to use RO if you end up having to change the filters more often. My RO filter element is about a year old which might strongly affect my results for cleaning though the water tastes fine. So what is acceptable for drinking might not be so good for record cleaning. Maybe one would need to replace the expensive RO cartrdge often if using the water for LP cleaning.
I'm not familiar with the Whirlpool RO per se, but a well functioning RO system should result in water output with only 5% to 10% of the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) present in your source water. In other words, if the TDS of your tap water is 100 ppm, a functioning RO system should spit out water with 5 to 10ppm of TDS. Anything under 10 is regarded as "pure" water, but anything under 50 will taste very clean generally. If you don't have one, you can get an inexpensive TDS meter to monitor your RO water to decide when to change your filters and membrane. Under 10ppm should be excellent for cleaning LPs, and anything under 50ppm should still work very well.

Distilled water should measure 0 to 1.5 ppm. Aquafina usually has the lowest TDS of bottled waters, but is generally in the 2 to 10 ppm range. Since it's more expensive than distilled and the TDS is worse (although very low in absolute level), I don't see the point in using Aquafina for an LP cleaning process.

B B
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Old 23rd November 2012, 03:52 PM   #187
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Default Warping problem diagnosed?

I had another warped record last night, even with slow rotation, but I think I've discovered the cause. While checking the accuracy of my thermometer (it's OK), I found a 30-degree temperature difference between the bottom of the tank and a hot layer just below the surface. This gradient persists after the heater is shut off, and neither ultrasonic action nor lp rotation mixes it away. Until now, I've been measuring too deep to pick up the actual maximum temperature which could easily be high enough to cause warping or even melt the vinyl. The GemOro machine has its heating elements on the side of the tank, not the bottom. This probably explains why there's not much convective mixing.

All this is consistent with Rick's report of melting near the surface of the bath. It also explains why turning the lps a quarter turn every 2 minutes is worse than continuous rotation: the same strip of vinyl stays in the hot layer and cooks for 2 minutes at a time.

A little bit of stirring yields a nearly uniform temperature distribution, so I'll stir the bath before taking a temperature reading, and more important, before inserting my records from here on. I'll continue to watch for warping, but this should cure the problem. Perhaps circulation from filtering will handle this automatically.

Has anyone else found a similar temperature difference? It's probably worth checking whether your temperature readings are a reliable measure of the hottest part of the bath.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 04:17 PM   #188
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Yes, since heat rises, I measure near the top of the tank on the side nearest the heater. Keep it 110-120F or lower and you shouldn't have any problems. Glad you have things sorted out now to keep your LPs flat!
I'm still amazed by the YouTube guy who uses steam to clean his LPs. They clearly warp in his video, but flatten back out almost immediately once the steam dissipates.
Cheers,
B B
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Old 24th November 2012, 12:21 PM   #189
oshifis is online now oshifis  Hungary
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Default Distilled water vs. deionized water

Distilled water is usually more expensive than deionized water sold at pump stations or in supermarkets for refilling the engine coolant. Take care because it is frequently marked as "distilled water" although it is not.
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Old 24th November 2012, 02:21 PM   #190
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Default Stirring the bath - good advice!

Thanks for that.

One of those things so obvious it has to be pointed out.

Out of curiosity what are you using as your thermometer?
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