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Old 19th November 2012, 06:53 PM   #171
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Hi Rick,

Yes, there might be differences in vinyl properties between lps.

Our baths likely heat our vinyl all the way through the thickness, and it might take longer than you think for the lps to fully cool all the way through. Based on my experience this weekend, I find that the lps are not completely cooled 2-3 minutes after removal from the bath. I suggest leaving the lps mounted on your spindle a bit longer before setting them on edge, say 5-10 minutes. Once the lps are fully cooled, they should have no more tendency to warp than a record that was not heated. Your idea to let them dry flat should be safer.

Depending on how the rack supports them, standing warm lps on edge in a rack could generate bending stresses that develop into a warp. Why not just air-dry them on your spindle in the raised position, perhaps with a fan to speed things up?

----

Rinsing on the VPI is just a temporary measure. Once I have everything put together, I'll rinse in separate baths, brush-free, by moving my rotisserie. It's possible that rinsing might not be needed with the right surfactant mix --- I'm open to that possibility.

As for drying, it would only take a single vacuum cycle to remove the final rinse liquid, leaving the lp fully dry and ready to play --- no spreading with a brush needed. Alternatively, I might air dry in place on the rotisserie.

In principle, there are pros and cons to vacuum liquid removal vs. air drying. Vacuum cleaning is best for avoiding residues of dirt and/or surfactant, but if the lps are well rinsed, the residues should be minimal. On the other hand, static charge is a distinct disadvantage of vacuum drying. Of course, if someone doesn't already own one, then a vacuum machine is not a cost-effective means to dry lps.
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Old 19th November 2012, 07:58 PM   #172
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Default Motor Shaft Weight Limits / Loading Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
I have the motor installed in the housing and when I look at that little motor shaft and I think of the weight of shaft and the records I am concerned that that little 1/8" shaft of the motor - can it really hold all of that weight?

I keep thinking of a way to support the shaft and still allow putting records onto the thing - the only place one could do this would be near the motor housing. And that could be really tricky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbftx View Post
Your idea of adding some kind of support near the motor housing is workable. I think it is possible to support the spindle (not the motor shaft per se). I'll play around with that thought.
B B
We're making this too difficult. The easiest way to prevent bending the motor shaft is to mount a fully loaded spindle, with your LPs and spacers already in place, onto the motor shaft. The opposite end of the spindle should be supported. Very little bending torque will be applied to the motor shaft if it is loaded in this fashion.

I've crafted 3 spindles, so I can preload, dry, and unload, at my leisure.

Here is a link to a quick video of what I'm talking about.
Mounting a Loaded Spindle onto the URC

Cheers,
B B
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Old 19th November 2012, 09:09 PM   #173
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Default I misunderstood this part of your method entirely

bbftx, I should have read closer as I am sure it was in there.

That makes perfect sense and I do not think there is a better way to do it.

Thanks for your patience, yet, again.

Ishmail if you plan on having some other vessel for the rinse you could do what someone (I am too lazy to open another window to get the name) else did amd make an "L" shaped stand for the rotisserie and allow the US machine to be easily removed.

This is what I have done after toying with the idea of a stand (which was foolish since there is no good way to get the machine out of the stand without some system of latches to open the thing up). I used 2 x 12 lengths of lumber which I planed and cut to width and then screwed and glued into the "L". The rotisserie simply mounts to the vertical member (which needs another width of lumber to hold the clamps. Got a scrap at HOME DEPOT for fifty one cents. Luckily I have a planer since it was NOT a straight board.

I got another letter from the DISK DOCTOR fellow. He does not share my/our enthusiasm for the US method. He did make an interesting point - that we should rinse "the dust" off our records before placing into the bath. The dust can act as sand blasting into the groove walls. I would counter that how can we be sure that the rinse would remove dust? Of course, it would remove some. Further, would that be worse than the brushes? Who knows? I know there are merits to both approaches.

He liked the idea of the filtering of the bath for just this reason. Again, I think bbftx has been, and continues to be, on the right track.

Certainly, there is no perfect method of doing this. I am looking for the easiest, most effective approach for the money. Before I was using the forty dollars of PVC pieces George Merrill sells and found it to work better than the VPI but WHAT A PAIN! This is so much better and when I get the thing finished it will be tremendously easier.

I do completely respect the DISK DOCTORS thoughts on cleaning fluids, though. I doubt there are many folks out there with his experience and knowledge. One day I might try the other things out there but until my bottle runs out (and likely I will buy another after that) I am sticking with it. It works well but that statement is limited to my narrow frame of reference.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:29 PM   #174
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Hey BB, I'm ready to move on ordering parts for a filter system based on your design. The only change is that I'll probably go with a 12 VDC pump, since that's the power I'm running for my rotisserie motor.

Questions: Is there a reason you reduced your tube diameter down to 1/4"? The housing you recommend also has options for 3/8" and 1/2". Were you trying to reduce flow rate so make less disturbance in the US bath? Also, have you settled on filtering during cleaning or do you mostly filter between runs?

Thanks.
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:30 PM   #175
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Default Pumps and Tubing Sizes

The HF2 filter housing does come in versions with 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" port sizes.
The URC application requires fairly low flow rates, at low pressures, over rather short lengths of tubing. So, the choice of port and tubing size really isn't too critical. I already had 1/4" hose barbs and tubing in my collection of odds and ends, so I ordered a 1/4" filter housing. I'm sure a housing with 3/8" ports would be fine too. 1/2" seems rather large for this application and would increase costs for fittings and tubing.

Smaller tubing also gives you more options for positioning the outlet going back into the URC tank.

I am generally filtering during the cleaning cycle, but will at times run the filter between cycles too. I don't leave the filter running all the time though. Running the filter for about 4 minutes at a time (pumping approx. 2 gallons of liquid through my filter setup) is adequate --- you don't want to overheat your pump. I don't think it's necessary to filter more often than about every 3 batches of records, but I'm sure some folks will feel more comfortable filtering for every cleaning cycle.

Check the duty cycle limits of whatever pump you're buying. I have a spare pump from an espresso machine that I considered using, but its duty cycle is 1 min on/1 min off ---- not really appropriate for this application.

Another reason I like the pump I'm using is that it's super quiet. Make sure the pump you select is quiet --- it's worth it if you're trying to listen or watch something while you're cleaning records.
Cheers,
B B

Last edited by bbftx; 20th November 2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 04:17 PM   #176
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Default bbftx, you might remove the picture showing the spindle ...

holding the LPs and spacers.

Put in a picture from the video and all will be easier to understand!

It would be neat if there were some kind of quick disconnect coupling that would be easy to snap in and out.

Ordered the pieces needed for the filter.

How many records (of average "dirtiness") can you clean with a filtered bath? Looked through the thread to see if you have mentioned this already and did not see anything. So if you had, please repeat it for me.

Have you left the solution overnight and cleaned more records the next day?

Distilled water, which I have not bought in many years, is surprisingly expensive these days. Especially when it takes almost the full gallon. The filter's cost will easily be paid for by saving money on the water, in addition to its many other advantages.

While in the midst of this clean records reverie my amplifiers blew up! What agony!!! Have no idea why. I am the first SIT casualty for Mr. Pass's magnificent amplifier. No music for the holidays for me. I will continue cleaning records and BE PREPARED for their return.

Thanks again for this thread.
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Old 21st November 2012, 05:21 PM   #177
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Default Loading options / Version 2 Design / Filtering

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
Put in a picture from the video and all will be easier to understand!

How many records (of average "dirtiness") can you clean with a filtered bath? Looked through the thread to see if you have mentioned this already and did not see anything. So if you had, please repeat it for me.

Have you left the solution overnight and cleaned more records the next day?
Hi Rick -- Perhaps I need to clarify the loading options. I have used my setup both by raising the arm and loading with the spindle already in place on the motor shaft, and alternatively, by mounting preloaded spindles onto the motor shaft (as shown in the video link from message #172 in this thread). The latter loading option reduces the chances of bending the motor shaft, but both procedures work for me.

Originally, before realizing that 3 LPs is really the limit on the amount of surface area that can be effectively cleaned in one cycle, the raisable arm concept would have enabled loading more records in one shot compared to the room needed to maneuver in a loaded spindle. But, given only 3 records on the spindle, there is room to mount the preloaded spindle instead. So, I may even build version 2 of my setup, with a fixed motor housing and no rotating arm.

I am not saving cleaning solution overnight. With filtration, the practical limit on number of records that can be cleaned with a batch of fluid is simply how much time I want to spend cleaning records that day. There is some evaporation of course, and perhaps greater loss of isopropyl than water. I just judge the condition of the solution and add a touch of isopropyl and a little more water as necessary to keep the unit filled to capacity (important in managing temperature!). Another drop or two of surfactant is added occasionally as well.

Also note that the 1 micron filter I'm using won't filter everything out of the cleaning solution. So there is a limit on the number of records that should be cleaned with a batch of fluid. Some chemicals and particles (the 60khz UC removes most particles down to around 0.3 microns --- see msg 93 in thread) may remain in the cleaning solution even after filtering. But as of yet, I don't feel I've hit that limit in a 4 or 5 hour cleaning session (17 or 18 cycles totalling 50 records or so).

I haven't yet tried an active carbon filter either. That would remove virtually all chemical residue we'd worry about from the cleaning solution. But, there is a larger pressure drop across a carbon filter and I'm not yet sure if my pump has the oomph to handle that or not.
Cheers,
B B

Last edited by bbftx; 21st November 2012 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:21 PM   #178
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Default Thanks for that

I hope it does not sound like I am harping on the motor spindle. Not my intention.

Your evolution to a fixed motor and multiple spindles sounds like the kind of thing experience brings to any project. Since I am still in assembly mode I think I will take that tact.

THANKS for the advice on cleaning. I think from that I will save Saturdays and Sundays for extended cleaning sessions and let the machine rest during the week.

My original thought was to clean what I was going to listen during the evening but the cost of water and your implied advice to not leave the bath overnight has changed my mind.

I am with you on no rinsing. I agree that this works so well when kept to simplicity itself; why try to complicate it?

YET again, my sincere thanks, and in addition a good Thanksgiving to you and your family. Needless to say I will be adding you to my list of people to be thankful for and to.
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:35 PM   #179
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BB, thanks for your quick response to my questions on the filtering setup yesterday. I just put in orders for the pump and housing, etc. I ended up with a 12VDC pump (Attwood Potable Water Pump, Amazon, ~$30 shipped w/ 3/8" barbs installed). I decided to run 3/8" tubing from the cleaner to pump to filter housing; then go down to 1/4" from the filter back into the cleaner.

That's an interesting comment you made about the simplifications possible in a design for a max of 3 lps. I started wit a design that rotated the records in from the side: load with the spindle pointing up and the lps horizontal, then rotate the spindle down into the horizontal position. It just barely didn't work with 4 lps, but should be easy with 3. Now I wish I'd stuck with that concept. Of course, no rotating arm is simpler still.
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:53 PM   #180
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Default Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
Your evolution to a fixed motor and multiple spindles sounds like the kind of thing experience brings to any project. Since I am still in assembly mode I think I will take that tact.

My original thought was to clean what I was going to listen during the evening but the cost of water and your implied advice to not leave the bath overnight has changed my mind.

YET again, my sincere thanks, and in addition a good Thanksgiving to you and your family. Needless to say I will be adding you to my list of people to be thankful for and to.
Rick-Thanks for the kind words and Holiday greetings. Same to you and yours.

These forums are fun because discussion and exchange of ideas always results in more rapid evolution of improvements and provides alternatives and options according to one's preferences. Thanks to you, Ish, and the rest of the folks contributing to this thread.

As far as water goes, I have considered installing a small reverse osmosis machine in my kitchen. We filter our tap water for drinking anyway, so an RO machine would be useful for that, and could provide lots of clean water for a URC too. Still may do that someday soon...

Cheers,
B B
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