All british hi-hi is based on this recipe. Actually it is an universal principle of Royal engineering. "make it as cheap as possible and charge what the market can bear.
The fact is Rega do not authorise nor endorse any upgrades. For the brand new entry tables there is nothing much better. I heard properly set up P3 with nice cart and it's good enough for moderatly advanced system. Another $10-$15K could bring a nice improvement but we're talking budget here. Anyway " my condolences' phrase is meaningless without explanation. In what sense they are over rated? I have P9 which retail at $4-5K . It looks like $50 ,flimsy POS but it plays OK compared to $5k acoustic solid and $15k Oracle.
The fact is Rega do not authorise nor endorse any upgrades. For the brand new entry tables there is nothing much better. I heard properly set up P3 with nice cart and it's good enough for moderatly advanced system. Another $10-$15K could bring a nice improvement but we're talking budget here. Anyway " my condolences' phrase is meaningless without explanation. In what sense they are over rated? I have P9 which retail at $4-5K . It looks like $50 ,flimsy POS but it plays OK compared to $5k acoustic solid and $15k Oracle.
No $15k Oracle here...
limono: Mine's an Alexandria MkII. When new it sold for $2400 or so without the dust cover (+ $150), without the dynamic stabalizer (+$150) and without tonearm. It had a Sumiko MMT (Jelco sourced, I think) when I bought it used (2-3 yrs. year old at the time). I later replace the MMT with a SME IIIs tonearm, and shortly thereafter a SME 309 (CAD $2650 at the time).
Because the Alexandria is no longer in the lineup, the closest suspended table would be the Delphi Mk VI (USD $4k). The SME 309 is available for USD $2195, the Oracle 345 tonearm USD $2995 (an upgrade over my tonearm). So probably USD $6200-$7k (?), not including tax, or thereabouts to replace. I'm sure I might consider a different table/arm if I had $7200 to spend on an arm/table combination in one shot. But maybe not---I do like the Roksan Xerxes MkI/RB250 (rewired w/silver /teflon wire and with the Michelle Tecno-weight and VTA adjuster nut) that I originally procured for $150 (without tonearm and tonearm mods) and needed an electrical tweak. I ended up gifting this table to my audio "partner", Mike. If he ever decides to get rid of it, I'll get it back from him.
Brett: Rega had never been an "upgrade" type maker themselves, but did so within the last 3 or 4 years for the arms and tables (the P3-24, the P1, P3...), and now the "RP" series of tables. Regarding Linn, I've had an Ariston RD11S (which is perhaps the proto-typical "Linn") apart and rebuilt it. If any LP12 was built like the Ariston, I'd be pretty depressed having spent that kind of money on it. They may sound very good, but the motors are the cheap Airpax/Thompson/Premotec ones. They may cost $100 or more to buy, but they are not worth it. No wonder Origin Live have made such an impact with their DC motor upgrades. The plinths are quite cheaply made too. And why is the "bolt mod" even needed? and Cirrcus, Valhalla , etc, etc. At least Rega allows an upgrade to the tables using the 24V motors. And it is not completely out of line for what others charge for essentially the same thing. I know that if a better power supply was made for the old style Oracle tables (Pabst "pancake motor"), I would certainly consider it (or make a clone). Of course another option would be to add a larger flywheel to the motor. In fact this could work on almost all tables: increase the inertia in the motor system itself, rather than try to "fix" things through electrical engineered solutions.
RJ: My comments are not meant to detract from all of the positives of the RP3 and newer Rega tables. The improvements made by Rega themselves have altered the performance of many of their tables in a very positive way (although as I have previously stated I have no personal experience with the newest of these:the RP1; RP3.). By improvements, I was not referring to aftermarket improvements. So although the last few posts I have made may seem to criticize the Rega turntables and tonearms, in fact my intent was exactly the opposite. And as previously stated, if I had to do everything all over again, I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up with an RP3/Grado combination (regardless of the "alleged" hum issues, which is very easy to "fix, mechanically, without AC filters etc), and the power supply.
I continue to believe that given your circumstances and budget it would be nearly impossible to touch the level of performance you will get from the RP3 with almost any other turntable/arm combination. The fact that in the future, you could "upgrade" the turntable with a power supply, and the silicon treatment to the sub-platter (which is reversible). I look forward to reading your posts on the sound quality of the turntable, and know that the amp and speakers (and wire) will conspire to make the turntable not to sound as good as it can be. I would suggest that once setup, ask your dealer to insert it into the lowest priced reasonable system that he stocks (maybe a Rega Mira amplifier) and some small , good and inexpensive speakers (as little as AUD$250 per pair), with very modest or inexpensive speaker wire. Then when you get the table home, you will know what limitations your existing amp and speakers impose on the sound. I think that is the fairest comparison you can make.
Relax. Calm down. And start listening to your music or go buy some records. Please PM me if I can help in any way (so as to not take away or distract from this thread).
limono: Mine's an Alexandria MkII. When new it sold for $2400 or so without the dust cover (+ $150), without the dynamic stabalizer (+$150) and without tonearm. It had a Sumiko MMT (Jelco sourced, I think) when I bought it used (2-3 yrs. year old at the time). I later replace the MMT with a SME IIIs tonearm, and shortly thereafter a SME 309 (CAD $2650 at the time).
Because the Alexandria is no longer in the lineup, the closest suspended table would be the Delphi Mk VI (USD $4k). The SME 309 is available for USD $2195, the Oracle 345 tonearm USD $2995 (an upgrade over my tonearm). So probably USD $6200-$7k (?), not including tax, or thereabouts to replace. I'm sure I might consider a different table/arm if I had $7200 to spend on an arm/table combination in one shot. But maybe not---I do like the Roksan Xerxes MkI/RB250 (rewired w/silver /teflon wire and with the Michelle Tecno-weight and VTA adjuster nut) that I originally procured for $150 (without tonearm and tonearm mods) and needed an electrical tweak. I ended up gifting this table to my audio "partner", Mike. If he ever decides to get rid of it, I'll get it back from him.
Brett: Rega had never been an "upgrade" type maker themselves, but did so within the last 3 or 4 years for the arms and tables (the P3-24, the P1, P3...), and now the "RP" series of tables. Regarding Linn, I've had an Ariston RD11S (which is perhaps the proto-typical "Linn") apart and rebuilt it. If any LP12 was built like the Ariston, I'd be pretty depressed having spent that kind of money on it. They may sound very good, but the motors are the cheap Airpax/Thompson/Premotec ones. They may cost $100 or more to buy, but they are not worth it. No wonder Origin Live have made such an impact with their DC motor upgrades. The plinths are quite cheaply made too. And why is the "bolt mod" even needed? and Cirrcus, Valhalla , etc, etc. At least Rega allows an upgrade to the tables using the 24V motors. And it is not completely out of line for what others charge for essentially the same thing. I know that if a better power supply was made for the old style Oracle tables (Pabst "pancake motor"), I would certainly consider it (or make a clone). Of course another option would be to add a larger flywheel to the motor. In fact this could work on almost all tables: increase the inertia in the motor system itself, rather than try to "fix" things through electrical engineered solutions.
RJ: My comments are not meant to detract from all of the positives of the RP3 and newer Rega tables. The improvements made by Rega themselves have altered the performance of many of their tables in a very positive way (although as I have previously stated I have no personal experience with the newest of these:the RP1; RP3.). By improvements, I was not referring to aftermarket improvements. So although the last few posts I have made may seem to criticize the Rega turntables and tonearms, in fact my intent was exactly the opposite. And as previously stated, if I had to do everything all over again, I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up with an RP3/Grado combination (regardless of the "alleged" hum issues, which is very easy to "fix, mechanically, without AC filters etc), and the power supply.
I continue to believe that given your circumstances and budget it would be nearly impossible to touch the level of performance you will get from the RP3 with almost any other turntable/arm combination. The fact that in the future, you could "upgrade" the turntable with a power supply, and the silicon treatment to the sub-platter (which is reversible). I look forward to reading your posts on the sound quality of the turntable, and know that the amp and speakers (and wire) will conspire to make the turntable not to sound as good as it can be. I would suggest that once setup, ask your dealer to insert it into the lowest priced reasonable system that he stocks (maybe a Rega Mira amplifier) and some small , good and inexpensive speakers (as little as AUD$250 per pair), with very modest or inexpensive speaker wire. Then when you get the table home, you will know what limitations your existing amp and speakers impose on the sound. I think that is the fairest comparison you can make.
Relax. Calm down. And start listening to your music or go buy some records. Please PM me if I can help in any way (so as to not take away or distract from this thread).
Hey everyone, well yesterday i finally got a chance to pick up the RP3 and Ortofon Blue and i must say i a love it.
The biggest thing i have noticed so far is how much more power it feels like it has. Drums sound fantastic on them and so far i have tested a variety of different music ranging from NIN, Beatles, Funkadelic to Michael Jackson and they all sounded great.I can also see a lot clearer now the weakness' in my other equipment and the idea of these items also getting replaced is very exciting. Does anyone know if valve amps are good matches with these players? Heard a lot of mix reviews on valve amps so intrigued to know peoples opinions.
All in all i loved it and was very happy with the folk i bought it off. still had a few drama's getting the damn thing in ( took a week longer than eta, got told 3 days in a row it will be "tomorrow" ) but all in all they were always honest and good about it and they also helped set the thing up and weight it right. I have a feeling the cart might have a little too much weight on it, as when the record players it seems to bob up and down - am i right to think that we want the arm to be quite stable during playing? or are you meant to have it moving a bit?
Thanks to everyone who offered advice on the process of getting this, has all worked out very well and i am very happy with mu purchase! Can't wait to start getting the rest of the pieces, but MUST have patience 😛
The biggest thing i have noticed so far is how much more power it feels like it has. Drums sound fantastic on them and so far i have tested a variety of different music ranging from NIN, Beatles, Funkadelic to Michael Jackson and they all sounded great.I can also see a lot clearer now the weakness' in my other equipment and the idea of these items also getting replaced is very exciting. Does anyone know if valve amps are good matches with these players? Heard a lot of mix reviews on valve amps so intrigued to know peoples opinions.
All in all i loved it and was very happy with the folk i bought it off. still had a few drama's getting the damn thing in ( took a week longer than eta, got told 3 days in a row it will be "tomorrow" ) but all in all they were always honest and good about it and they also helped set the thing up and weight it right. I have a feeling the cart might have a little too much weight on it, as when the record players it seems to bob up and down - am i right to think that we want the arm to be quite stable during playing? or are you meant to have it moving a bit?
Thanks to everyone who offered advice on the process of getting this, has all worked out very well and i am very happy with mu purchase! Can't wait to start getting the rest of the pieces, but MUST have patience 😛
If the record has undulations then yes you want the arm to move with it. You don't want the cantilever to flex in sympathy though; this would be a sign that the arm isn't following the undulations accurately.
RJ, great the hear!
RJ: this is what so many here like to see as an outcome: a "newbie" actually taking advice that was offered (by so many folks who have nothing at all to gain) and being completely satisfied with the end result. This is why many here take the time to engage in these threads. I can tell you had you just read "go buy the RP3 ..." and not engaged in the thread yourself, you most certainly would be second guessing yourself. Although this is a DIY forum, many folks are intimidated by customizing or making from scratch a turntable and tonearm. And most here have a pretty extensive background with commercial products, because prior to DIY, we all started at the same place, looking to improve our equipment, and frustrated that it seems to always cost SO much.
Regarding patience: I've looked at Ebay Australia and the site seems to be somewhat lean in terms of what I consider quality audio gear. Maybe most down there have different priorities and interests?
Please consider some of the excellent products (by all accounts, I have no personal experiences) provided by Elliot Sound Products. It looks like about AUD $32 will get you the printed circuit boards (PCBs). Not sure who big suppliers for small quantity electronic components are in Australia, but I'm sure someone like Digikey or similar must exist down there. It could be that for way under AUD$100 you could end up with a very respectable MM phono stage. Buy the MC phono stage PCB (if available), otherwise ask for some help to make changes to the PCB (P06) to allow a MC input/circuit to be added using a simple DTDP (double throw, double pole) switch. Then as finances permit, buy the parts for the power supply first (P05), then the phono preamp (P06). Buy the parts for the MC preamp and add as help is obtained (I'm sure that Mr. Elliot would help or steer you to help on various forums. Like I suggest, I'm pretty sure that a respectable phono stage can be done for not much money and would be the first step to anything else you do. And you could buy the boards one month, the parts over a couple of months , maybe tools required over 2 or 3 months (a soldering iron, some good electronics solder ,a "third hand" tool, maybe a decent quality digital multi-meter, and an assortment of small electronics tools,including good wire strippers).
About tube amps and other things: Some folks love them, some folks hate them. I've had good experiences with both tube and solid state (SS) amps and pre-amps. Including some very good, inexpensive "T"-amps (Tripath based amplifiers). There are some very good, relatively inexpensive tube equipment coming from China. Just remember that for best results, one needs to choose speakers based on their amplification, as speakers that do well with tubes do not perform well with SS, and visa versa. I have a pretty extensive experience with several class-D and class-T amplifiers. These can be very good, or mediocre. I strongly suggest that you not think that a high output (50 watts/ch or higher) class-T amplifier will drive a lot of current. Speakers for class-T and class-D amplifiers often follow along the same lines as those suited for lower power tube amplifiers: High efficiency, high sensitivity, high Qts tend to work well with these. But that's a long way off. And relatively expensive.
One relatively painless option would be to save your nickels and dimes and buy a good integrated used from a retail hifi shop (such as the one where you purchased the RP3 from). They often end up with older used products taken in partial trade for newer ones. A Rega Mira or Mira2 would be a great all round choice, but there are many others. If unsure, just check back or PM me, or do your own research. I'd gladly give you a good receiver or integrated amp if the cost of freight to you isn't unreasonable.
Regarding loudspeakers: Here I must admit that I sttrongly suggest that you try DIY. Several good designs are all over the internet.
Regarding undulations: This is quite normal and if the record has warps (even minor ones) then the arm will ride up and down on those warps as the stylus tries to stay in contact with record. Not sure if the RP3 has a tall enough spindle to allow the use of a record clamp. Something that I have used with good success is an ice hockey puck. Drill a 7 mm hole in the middle of it and then just push it over the spindle and down onto the record label. Not sure how many ice hockey pucks are available in Aus, but something of similar size, shape and weight could work. It could be made of wood as well, need not be rubber as a hockey puck (I guess it's pretty easy to see that I'm definitely Canuck after all...). An ice hockey puck has the specifications as follows: thickness: 1 inch (25 mm), diameter: 3 inches (76 mm), weight: between 5.5 and 6 ounces (160 and 170 g)
As always let folks here know how things are going ...
RJ: this is what so many here like to see as an outcome: a "newbie" actually taking advice that was offered (by so many folks who have nothing at all to gain) and being completely satisfied with the end result. This is why many here take the time to engage in these threads. I can tell you had you just read "go buy the RP3 ..." and not engaged in the thread yourself, you most certainly would be second guessing yourself. Although this is a DIY forum, many folks are intimidated by customizing or making from scratch a turntable and tonearm. And most here have a pretty extensive background with commercial products, because prior to DIY, we all started at the same place, looking to improve our equipment, and frustrated that it seems to always cost SO much.
Regarding patience: I've looked at Ebay Australia and the site seems to be somewhat lean in terms of what I consider quality audio gear. Maybe most down there have different priorities and interests?
Please consider some of the excellent products (by all accounts, I have no personal experiences) provided by Elliot Sound Products. It looks like about AUD $32 will get you the printed circuit boards (PCBs). Not sure who big suppliers for small quantity electronic components are in Australia, but I'm sure someone like Digikey or similar must exist down there. It could be that for way under AUD$100 you could end up with a very respectable MM phono stage. Buy the MC phono stage PCB (if available), otherwise ask for some help to make changes to the PCB (P06) to allow a MC input/circuit to be added using a simple DTDP (double throw, double pole) switch. Then as finances permit, buy the parts for the power supply first (P05), then the phono preamp (P06). Buy the parts for the MC preamp and add as help is obtained (I'm sure that Mr. Elliot would help or steer you to help on various forums. Like I suggest, I'm pretty sure that a respectable phono stage can be done for not much money and would be the first step to anything else you do. And you could buy the boards one month, the parts over a couple of months , maybe tools required over 2 or 3 months (a soldering iron, some good electronics solder ,a "third hand" tool, maybe a decent quality digital multi-meter, and an assortment of small electronics tools,including good wire strippers).
About tube amps and other things: Some folks love them, some folks hate them. I've had good experiences with both tube and solid state (SS) amps and pre-amps. Including some very good, inexpensive "T"-amps (Tripath based amplifiers). There are some very good, relatively inexpensive tube equipment coming from China. Just remember that for best results, one needs to choose speakers based on their amplification, as speakers that do well with tubes do not perform well with SS, and visa versa. I have a pretty extensive experience with several class-D and class-T amplifiers. These can be very good, or mediocre. I strongly suggest that you not think that a high output (50 watts/ch or higher) class-T amplifier will drive a lot of current. Speakers for class-T and class-D amplifiers often follow along the same lines as those suited for lower power tube amplifiers: High efficiency, high sensitivity, high Qts tend to work well with these. But that's a long way off. And relatively expensive.
One relatively painless option would be to save your nickels and dimes and buy a good integrated used from a retail hifi shop (such as the one where you purchased the RP3 from). They often end up with older used products taken in partial trade for newer ones. A Rega Mira or Mira2 would be a great all round choice, but there are many others. If unsure, just check back or PM me, or do your own research. I'd gladly give you a good receiver or integrated amp if the cost of freight to you isn't unreasonable.
Regarding loudspeakers: Here I must admit that I sttrongly suggest that you try DIY. Several good designs are all over the internet.
Regarding undulations: This is quite normal and if the record has warps (even minor ones) then the arm will ride up and down on those warps as the stylus tries to stay in contact with record. Not sure if the RP3 has a tall enough spindle to allow the use of a record clamp. Something that I have used with good success is an ice hockey puck. Drill a 7 mm hole in the middle of it and then just push it over the spindle and down onto the record label. Not sure how many ice hockey pucks are available in Aus, but something of similar size, shape and weight could work. It could be made of wood as well, need not be rubber as a hockey puck (I guess it's pretty easy to see that I'm definitely Canuck after all...). An ice hockey puck has the specifications as follows: thickness: 1 inch (25 mm), diameter: 3 inches (76 mm), weight: between 5.5 and 6 ounces (160 and 170 g)
As always let folks here know how things are going ...
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I know nothing about the new one's, but the older one's are quite well made, not made by Linn of course, but sub'd out. There were even a few made with some quite exotic wood before all the export restrictions took over.
An attempt to sink vibration from the motor.
Valve based phono preamps can be very good, but if you're on a budget, stick with SS.
Anything specific? Lots of misinformation out there.
good morning Jeff🙂 !
Hey Jeff, my comments are the apparent quality of the Rega plinths, not how they sound!
Take care all.
Hey Jeff, my comments are the apparent quality of the Rega plinths, not how they sound!
Yes, perhaps the exterior style plinth "frames". The plinths were made of medite or similar. One interesting plinth can be easily made from an IKEA "lack" end table (usually $200. Cut to correct dimensions (only cut 2 sides). Shave off the edge pieces from the left over and re-glue. A very excellent foundation for any turntable (if you doubt me go spend $20 and just use the whole Lack table top as a shelf or platform to set your turntable on, just make sure to elevate it off your existing shelf using some sort of feet or marbles...
Ok, I'll buy that. It just always seemed it was to support the top plate, not as a vibration sink.
Complete agreement!
A moot point at this time
Take care all.
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