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Old 12th January 2013, 10:42 AM   #21
MrPig is offline MrPig  United Kingdom
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Hi there,

Great work! There are a couple of other things I recommend looking at.

First is the motor PSU. The motor power supply in the Rega is about as basic as you get but they actually use the same motor as the Linn LP12 and a number of other similar turntables. The upshot is that any supply designed for the LP12 will work on the Rega!

There are several DIY designs you could build, you can build a clone of the Naim Armageddon and I have a clone of the Norton Air Power here. These will work fine on your Rega and improve the timing and refinement as well as giving you a bit more detail.

The other thing you want to do is remove the paint on the arm. Johnny, Audio Origami, can do this to very high standard but you can do it yourself quite easily. It opens up the sound, makes it more airy.

By the way, removing the paint is the only modification that Roy Gandi actually approves of! The paint was never part of the original design. Rega could add damping to the arm tube if they wanted to, but they don't, and I agree with them.
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Old 12th January 2013, 09:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPig View Post
Hi there,

Great work! There are a couple of other things I recommend looking at.

First is the motor PSU. The motor power supply in the Rega is about as basic as you get but they actually use the same motor as the Linn LP12 and a number of other similar turntables. The upshot is that any supply designed for the LP12 will work on the Rega!

There are several DIY designs you could build, you can build a clone of the Naim Armageddon and I have a clone of the Norton Air Power here. These will work fine on your Rega and improve the timing and refinement as well as giving you a bit more detail.

The other thing you want to do is remove the paint on the arm. Johnny, Audio Origami, can do this to very high standard but you can do it yourself quite easily. It opens up the sound, makes it more airy.

By the way, removing the paint is the only modification that Roy Gandi actually approves of! The paint was never part of the original design. Rega could add damping to the arm tube if they wanted to, but they don't, and I agree with them.
Hey yes: I was considering building a PSU..., which one works best in your opinion - and do you have links to schematics?

I spoke with Johnny about the RB300. He actually uses tonearm damping though, and the damping I did on my arm worked quite well.., I didnt think removing the paint would have a noticable enough effect. I may consider it with my RB250.

Cheers

Last edited by TigerScent; 12th January 2013 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 12th January 2013, 10:52 PM   #23
MrPig is offline MrPig  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by TigerScent View Post
Hey yes: I was considering building a PSU..., which one works best in your opinion - and do you have links to schematics?
Yes, here you go: LINK

Off hand I don't know where you'd get the plans for the Geddon but I'm sure they're out there. They are both quite simple devices.

As to which is best, well I doubt there is much in it. They are very similar. Few people have done fair comparisons of both but at the time some people who had felt the Air Power was the better of the two. And better than the other LP12 supplies that were available. But like I say, I think that any differences between the two will be very small.

Quote:
I spoke with Johnny about the RB300. He actually uses tonearm damping though, and the damping I did on my arm worked quite well..,
Yes, maybe it does. I guess it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Some resonances/colourations are noticeable and distracting, like the upper-mid ringing on the Linn Ittok, but I never felt the Rega arms had any such issues. I think they are pretty neutral and if anything a bit bland. I didn't want to kill the sound any more, I wanted to open it up.

Quote:
I didn't think removing the paint would have a noticeable enough effect.
When Rega designed the arm the whole one-piece casting thing was revolutionary. When it came to finishing the arm to a commercially acceptable standard they found that casting quality was too variable to allow the tube to be left bare. The only cost-effective solution was to paint the tube but the paint does damp the tube and add weight. Eventually Rega managed to refine the casting process and select the cleanest tubes for their best arm. What is the difference between the RB1000 and the cheaper arms? Lack of paint! Yes, of course there are other differences too if the paint helped, or if it made no difference, the RB1000 would be painted.

Having stripped two RB300s I can tell you it is worth doing. I'd say the difference is at least as big as a rewire.
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Old 12th January 2013, 11:36 PM   #24
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Rega have used 24v (currently) and 120v motors. So make sure if considering a Geddon you use the correct transformer for your needs. Here's my LP motor Geddon used on my Kuzma.

Click the image to open in full size.
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hoping to pick up some things.
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Old 13th January 2013, 02:22 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPig View Post
Yes, here you go: LINK

Off hand I don't know where you'd get the plans for the Geddon but I'm sure they're out there. They are both quite simple devices.

As to which is best, well I doubt there is much in it. They are very similar. Few people have done fair comparisons of both but at the time some people who had felt the Air Power was the better of the two. And better than the other LP12 supplies that were available. But like I say, I think that any differences between the two will be very small.
Is there a design that allows for 33/45 speed changes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPig View Post
Yes, maybe it does. I guess it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Some resonances/colourations are noticeable and distracting, like the upper-mid ringing on the Linn Ittok, but I never felt the Rega arms had any such issues. I think they are pretty neutral and if anything a bit bland. I didn't want to kill the sound any more, I wanted to open it up.
hmmmm, I havent found it an issue - sounds 'smoother' with detail if anything to me...

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Originally Posted by MrPig View Post
Having stripped two RB300s I can tell you it is worth doing. I'd say the difference is at least as big as a rewire.
...OK..., now you have me thinking..., so - if you put clear laquer on the arm, after stripping it, then you have the same situation, and if you leave it, it goes dull and oxidises, also giving a similar situation....

...I was thinking of sandblasting it, but its just the finish I am concerned about...., since I have already rewired my RB300 and dont want to send it away...

...but might get Johnnie from AO to gold plate my RB250 arm now, since you mention it....

Last edited by TigerScent; 13th January 2013 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 13th January 2013, 02:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by sq225917 View Post
Rega have used 24v (currently) and 120v motors. So make sure if considering a Geddon you use the correct transformer for your needs. Here's my LP motor Geddon used on my Kuzma.

Click the image to open in full size.
...I like the simple compact design - I would use the same case...if you can still get it, ... where did you get the transformer from? I have 240v here, and the motor is the 120vAC with modified circuit for 240v.....

...I guess I could dispense with the modified circuit and use a 240primary/120secondary....

Last edited by TigerScent; 13th January 2013 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 13th January 2013, 03:32 AM   #27
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The Norton Air-Power looks like it might work best...; anyone done a comparision with Norton and Geddon??

Last edited by TigerScent; 13th January 2013 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 13th January 2013, 09:14 AM   #28
MrPig is offline MrPig  United Kingdom
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[QUOTE=TigerScent;3323249]Is there a design that allows for 33/45 speed changes?[quote/]

No, not that I know of. There might be I guess but I've never heard of it.

Quote:
hmmmm, I havent found it an issue - sounds 'smoother' with detail if anything to me...
It's all a matter of taste. Right now I'm using a step-up transformer I put together for my Denon DL-103 cartridge. In many ways it sounds wonderful. It sound more organic, tuneful, detailed, etc but I probably won't be keeping it in my system. While so much about what it does is good it also robs music of 'bite'. Music that should sound frenetic and edgy sounds 'nice'. So 'smoother' isn't always a good thing.

Quote:
If you put clear laquer on the arm, after stripping it, then you have the same situation
Yes.

Quote:
and if you leave it, it goes dull and oxidises
It depends. If you polish the tube yourself my hand you're unlikely to get it as clean and shiny as Johnny can get it and it does dull a bit over time. Not to the extent that it's going to significantly alter the sound though. If it's very highly polished it tarnishes much less.

Quote:
...I was thinking of sandblasting it...but might get Johnnie to gold plate it....
Any surface treatment you do to the tube will sound different. A gold-plated tube will not sound the same as a stripped one and a bead-blasted one will sound different again. Johnny is probably the best person to ask about the differences, he's heard them, I haven't.

I chose to strip the tube because I knew that Rega approve of that. Lots of people are quick to say 'Oh Rega got this or that wrong' but I think they're better designers than that. Many of the mods that people do to these arms were rejected by Rega for a reason. They might give you one thing at the cost of something else or unbalance the sound. I think it's funny that so many people say that the RB250 is better than the RB300, rubbish! If the configuration of the RB250 was better why would Rega only use it fort their cheapest arm? Would that not be really stupid?
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Old 13th January 2013, 11:17 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by MrPig View Post
I think it's funny that so many people say that the RB250 is better than the RB300, rubbish! If the configuration of the RB250 was better why would Rega only use it fort their cheapest arm? Would that not be really stupid?
The additional features on the RB300 arm, such as spring assembly for adjustment replaces one side with no bearings, so that the RB300 only has one side with bearings - the RB250 does not have this useless feature, and has 2 bearings instead, giving greater alignment and stability. In addition the spring 'rings like a bell' on the RB300 if you tap it. I had to dampen it and render it unusable.

The wiring is worse on the RB250, and the counterweight is abominably worse. So the cost of producing the RB300 arm is greater, and has added features, with a much better (once tungsten) counterweight; and is therefore put on Regas better turntables with regards to the RB250. However, the RB250 is a more solid and stable performer due to its precise simplicity - IF one changes the counterweight and rewires it (added cost: ie Michell tecnoweight etc).

I dont believe Rega makes all thier decisions based on 'idealism', but some are simply more effective economic measures, and some things - well, just dont work as well, ie: motor needs greater isolation and arm needs decoupling (this is where the music starts sounding more 'live'), not in line with some of Regas statements. What I did I found works.

Last edited by TigerScent; 13th January 2013 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 13th January 2013, 12:48 PM   #30
MrPig is offline MrPig  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerScent View Post
That the RB300 only has one side with bearings
That's a popular misconception. The RB300 has two bearings, just like the RB250, and the bearing spindle is supported at both sides, just like the RB250. It's just that the dial-side bearing support is removable on the RB300.

Quote:
I don't believe Rega makes all thier decisions based on 'idealism', but some are simply more effective economic measures
Maybe, but why then would they use a configuration that was less stable and less effective on their more costly arms when they have a better option that costs less? How does that make sense?

Just as you're looking beyond the surface and considering Rega's motives one has to consider the motives of those who say the RB250 configuration is better. Can that be taken at face value?

Everyone who sells modified Rega arms uses the RB250 configuration and insists that it's better. Why? Did they choose it simply because it is better, as they would have you beleive? Not really. Firstly, it's all they can get! Rega have always supplied RB250-type arms and parts to other companies for modification and resale. For most of their history Rega have refused to supply any of their better arms for this purpose. The modders have used the RB250 because Rega won't give them anything else. Which is fair enough, it's their investment and they can protect it if they want.

Also, if you've ever taken these arms apart you'll know that it's a lot easier to work on an RB250 than an RB300. After-market companies use these arms because it's easy to do some simple work on an already great product and claim credit for the whole thing.

It's the same with dynamic verses static balancing. I don't think that either is inherently wrong, they both have advantages and disadvantages, but most small manufacturers and modders prefer static-balance because it's much simpler to make and to deal with. But of course they're not going to say that are they? No. Every one of them will say that they choose things because they are better, not because they make life easier and are cheaper to make.

Like I say, it's not fair to call into question the motives of Rega while ignoring the motives of the modders. Personally, I think Rega have done all the hard work and understand these arms better than a lot of people give them credit for.
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