I'm new, What phono pre do you recommend?

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gtyler

Member
Joined 2010
Hello,

I've been a member for a while, but I'm still new at this. I've been honing my skills and getting ready for my first real from scratch DIY project. Now that I'm ready, I need some advice. I would like to build a phono pre with extremely low noise and excellent sound reproduction, so I have been considering a battery powered design. My problem is I don't know what design to use, or what designers are well regarded, or how to tell that a design will very clean and accurate. Here are the designs that I have been considering in no particular order:

inDiscreet Phono Pre-amplifier [English]

DIYHiFi.org • View topic - "Duplex" 2SK369 MM phono preamp

Boozhound Laboratories JFET Phono Preamp Kit

I'v also been looking at this one but with an external power supply.

Hi-Fi RIAA Phono Preamp


I am leaning toward the indiscreet phono pre simply because the guy seems to know what he is talking about and he's not selling anything so he's not going to try to talk up his design, but of course that's not the best basis for a decision.

Has anyone here done any of these projects?
I would love to hear what anyone has to say about any of these projects.

Thanks
 
Nico Ras

Nico Ras

Member
Joined 2005
The first two uses passive equalisation. Some audiophiles will swear that it is better. Hard to tell though.

The first circuit uses a off-set power supply which may be difficult to realize using batteries and the the discharge of the batteries may not be equal thus may affect the performance during longer listening periods.

Rod Elliot does not publish bad schematics and it may be a lot easier to build and get repeatable results.

I have not encountered any circuits from Boozehound, but judging from what he offers, it seems like he knows what he is doing.

Good luck,

Nico
 
G

gtyler

Member
Joined 2010
Nico Ras said:
The first two uses passive equalisation. Some audiophiles will swear that it is better. Hard to tell though.

The first circuit uses a off-set power supply which may be difficult to realize using batteries and the the discharge of the batteries may not be equal thus may affect the performance during longer listening periods.

Rod Elliot does not publish bad schematics and it may be a lot easier to build and get repeatable results.

I have not encountered any circuits from Boozehound, but judging from what he offers, it seems like he knows what he is doing.

Good luck,

Nico
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. After your response, and after hearing from Rod Elliott via email about the possibility of using batteries, I am now leaning more towards his design with a separated mains power supply. I guess i have never heard a phono pre that runs off mains power and is totally silent, but then again, I have never heard a phono pre with a separated power supply. Right now I am using the MM phono stage of my Yamaha C-4, and it is quite good, but when the volume is high I can still hear (very faintly) a hiss form the amp. I'm hoping this project will eliminate that. Do you think it will?

Any more advice regarding phono pres that you can give is welcomed.
 
Calvin

Calvin

Member
Joined 2004
calvins-audio-page.jimdo.com
Hi,

if the Yamaha is a bit too noisy for You, all the other circuits won´t probabely any better.
A differential amplifier as frontend for example has higher intrinsic noise than a single ended or complementary stage. Additionally the differential stage of the inDiscreet lacks in symmetry, thereby giving rise to distortion.
The local feedback degeneration resistors R4/5 are of high value and increase noise considerably. Passive equalization asks for higher gains which has to be considered regarding noise and distortion figures.

The noise issue of large emitter-/source-resistors also applies to the Boozhound. A bit weird that both gain stages of the Boozhound are identical. It is rather common standard to have the most gain in the first stage.

The Duplex is imho superior in noise performance compared to the former two stages, as the resistor value niveau is generally lower.
Like the Boozhound it requires just one supply rail.

The two stage OPamp design uses Opamps of unsuffiecient performance.
As a rule of thumb the noise spec of the op amp should be lower than app 5nV/sqr(Hz) for MM-pickups which the outdated TLs clearly miss.

If I had to choose the Duplex would be the most interesting circuit of the four.

jauu
Calvin
 
S

sreten

R.I.P.
Joined 2003
gtyler said:
Right now I am using the MM phono stage of my Yamaha C-4, and it is quite
good, but when the volume is high I can still hear (very faintly) a hiss form
the amp. I'm hoping this project will eliminate that. Do you think it will?

Any more advice regarding phono pres that you can give is welcomed.
Click to expand...

Hi,

No it won't. Any RIAA stage will have treble hiss compared to the other line
inputs, it is inevitable, and in a decent design far lower than groove noise.
(With non-optimum grounding also more hum, but that can be fixed.)

I don't think you have a hope in hell as a first project of bettering the C4
phono stage, with its MC input, double MM inputs and loading options.

Spend you time and effort elsewhere, What's your turntable/arm/cartridge ?

rgds, sreten.
 
vinylkid58

vinylkid58

Member
Joined 2005
sreten said:
I don't think you have a hope in hell as a first project of bettering the C4
phono stage, with its MC input, double MM inputs and loading options.
Click to expand...

I admit I've never heard the C4, but I'll wager my "first time project" Pass Pearl sounds at least as good (if not better) than the MM Yamaha stage. I'd love to do a comparison, but certainly not going out of my way to find a C4.

jeff
 
S

sreten

R.I.P.
Joined 2003
vinylkid58 said:
I admit I've never heard the C4, but I'll wager my "first time project" Pass Pearl
sounds at least as good (if not better) than the MM Yamaha stage. I'd love to
do a comparison, but certainly not going out of my way to find a C4.

jeff
Click to expand...

Hi,

It might, but its a one input medium MC stage, its very inflexible compared
to the C4, and without knowing the source (MM), completely inappropriate.

There is no evidence at all the C4 phono stage is the most limiting factor.

rgds, sreten.

The C4 in todays money is a circa $2.5K preamp, with serious phono stages,
as its the right sort of vintage where they were the most important input.
 
Last edited:
vinylkid58

vinylkid58

Member
Joined 2005
sreten said:
It might, but its a one input medium MC stage, its very inflexible compared
to the C4, and without knowing the source (MM), completely inappropriate.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's very flexible, and works quite well as a MM stage.

sreten said:
There is no evidence at all the C4 phono stage is the most limiting factor.
Click to expand...

True, but this IS a DIY forum, and the poster wants to build something.

jeff
 
S

sreten

R.I.P.
Joined 2003
vinylkid58 said:
Actually, it's very flexible, and works quite well as a MM stage.

True, but this IS a DIY forum, and the poster wants to build something.

jeff
Click to expand...

Hi,

A) No it isn't as I recall the write up I read, unless you modify it.

B) Pointless building something that will be no better than what you have.

I'm all for informed DIY, but not DIY for DIY sake when it will be no better.

rgds, sreten.
 
Bksabath

Bksabath

Banned
Joined 2007
Nico Ras said:
The first two uses passive equalisation. Some audiophiles will swear that it is better. Hard to tell though.

The first circuit uses a off-set power supply which may be difficult to realize using batteries and the the discharge of the batteries may not be equal thus may affect the performance during longer listening periods.

Rod Elliot does not publish bad schematics and it may be a lot easier to build and get repeatable results.

I have not encountered any circuits from Boozehound, but judging from what he offers, it seems like he knows what he is doing.

Good luck,

Nico
Click to expand...

I have made a balanced in split passive Riaa MC pre with INA LT 1028 imput stage and
servos it has been working of Lead acid cels for the last 3 years.

I had the problems of the cels not charging up at same rate so I kept them in series and used a 150 ma Buffer to make the virtual ground.

There is better than Lead cells out there but can't say no more at present.

I like Rod Eliot site a lot and he is (my personal experience) alwayse willing to help well worth building same of his stuff.

I have been folowing the MPP tread I am a bit out of my depth there but again lot to learn and that is a forum I keep looking at

For easy passive Riaa values have a look at KABUSA web site.

Altrought I enjoied doing the maths to 4 decimal place a couple of times

I am revorking on my MC phono stage and going to get rid of one gain stage by conbining the the split passive in to a one shoot Riaa.

Eventualy I know I will go to a discrete but that is out of my capabilityes at the moment

Still loads of fun to be had it all depends on what you want and why you do this.

Build the Pearl? I would and will eventualy.

IF you wnat to start a jurney buiding things and the jurney is the to became the important part of it just get started
If you are not interested in the jurney itself to get low noise not even a INA LT1028 imput stage will be good enoug bateries or not
There is a good article by Jochim Gherard on linerar audio Down the Rabit hole that is well worth the price of the wholle mag.
 
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G

gtyler

Member
Joined 2010
sreten said:
The C4 in todays money is a circa $2.5K preamp, with serious phono stages,
as its the right sort of vintage where they were the most important input.
Click to expand...

The phono stages and the fact that this amp was from the era that this was the most important input is exactly why I bought my c4. I am extremely happy with it and the noise I mentioned before is far below the noise floor of any record. I think where I went wrong is I always read people talking about how silent their phono stage is even when they turn it up, and took that too literally. I assumed that if there was such a thing as a completely silent phono stage it would be easiest to do with a battery powered and separate phono pre. By the sounds of things, I was wrong, and this noise is a function of the gain required in a phono stage. Am I right?

Regardless, as vinylkid guessed, I do want to build something, but I would really like it to be at least comparable to what i have. From what Calvin said it looks like my best bet is the duplex. Are there other DIY phono pres that I have missed that you would recommend?
 
K.A.B

K.A.B

Member
Joined 2005
Hi,
I have a inDiscreet that I built in 2004 which I am very pleased.


Calvin said:
Hi,

if the Yamaha is a bit too noisy for You, all the other circuits won´t probabely any better.
A differential amplifier as frontend for example has higher intrinsic noise than a single ended or complementary stage. Additionally the differential stage of the inDiscreet lacks in symmetry, thereby giving rise to distortion.
The local feedback degeneration resistors R4/5 are of high value and increase noise considerably. Passive equalization asks for higher gains which has to be considered regarding noise and distortion figures.


jauu
Calvin
Click to expand...


I also had my doubts over the design before I built my inDiscreet pre pre, but it is quite different between theory and reality, inDiscreet must be one of the most underrated DIY phono pre out there.

At a meeting in the audio group as I am a member of we listened to a variety of phono pre amps both DIY and manufactured the only thing we had that goal was that it would be nice to lisining to. let the foot tapp, everything else was of secondary importance.

After a hole day of listening was 15 members agreed that the two phono pre which was most pleasant to listen to was Linn Linto and inDiscreet pre, it was a matter of taste which you prefer.

The other phono pre was

Gillis battery bc550
SRPP tube phono
Burmester
ASR basic V.?
Lyra (locally made​​)
Rotel
Anthem
Pearl

/Anders
 
kevinkr

kevinkr

Administrator
Joined 2004
kta-hifi.net
Paid Member
Bksabath

Bksabath

Banned
Joined 2007
kevinkr said:
You ought to also consider the Salas njfet phono stage right here in this forum. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/129126-simplistic-njfet-riaa.html

While I am an all tubes sort of guy this design is highly respected, and worth a look.. Check out the GB situation for parts and pcb. May be a little more work up front for what will be a great phono stage.
Click to expand...

I spent a couple of days working on it and it is early but so far I am realy impressed by it.

EASY to Sink your teeth in to and briliant to understand what is going on
 
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