Mistracking LPs - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Source & Line > Analogue Source

Analogue Source Turntables, Tonearms, Cartridges, Phono Stages, Tuners, Tape Recorders, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th July 2011, 03:10 PM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default Mistracking LPs

Is there a reason why used LP's seem to mistrack more at the start?
Is it because the vinyl is going faster past the stylus and so wears more?
Is this actually a known phenomenon or just me?
The cartridge is very carefully alingned.
Steve
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 03:50 PM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
kevinahcc20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Farmington Hills, MI USA
The opportunity for damage to LP grooves is much higher at the outer periphery of the record due to careless tonearm handling, miscues, and inadequate damping in the cueing mechanism. Once the stylus is in the groove and the listener is back in his/her chair the risks go down considerably.
__________________
Kevin(ahcc20)...I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 04:29 PM   #3
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
kevinkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Blog Entries: 6
Do you mean skipping or actual mis-tracking? The two are quite different, and mis-tracking generally becomes a larger problem as the velocity decreases towards the inner grooves and the wavelengths of high frequency material become short - approaching in some cases the size of the stylus contact area.. This is usually characterized by badly distorted and congested sounding high frequencies..
__________________
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 04:39 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinkr View Post
Do you mean skipping or actual mis-tracking? The two are quite different, and mis-tracking generally becomes a larger problem as the velocity decreases towards the inner grooves and the wavelengths of high frequency material become short - approaching in some cases the size of the stylus contact area.. This is usually characterized by badly distorted and congested sounding high frequencies..
Sorry,I can't be more exact - I mean the sound is distorted as if the stylus needs cleaning. I call that mistracking but I'm probably woefully inaccurate.I would have expected things to get worse towards the inner part for just the reason you explain but things seem to be bad at the start, much better in the middle and not as good towards the centre. I'm sure I've got the cart properly set up.
Steve

Last edited by evetsfrance; 28th July 2011 at 04:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 04:43 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Canandaigua, NY USA
Sure, the forces dragging the arm towards center are greater the further away from center you get. Anti-skating devices help there but are always compromises. There's also a slight bulge on the outer edge of many records and the surface at the beginning can be slightly "downhill". The tonearm wires could be pulling is slightly at the outer edge, depending on how they're biased. All this stuff conspires to cause skipping if there's any groove damage or scratches near the edge. There's also an inertia effect. When the stylus touches down, it usually doesn't land directly in a groove. The arm then moves inward until the stylus "catches" a groove. Without adequate anti-skating forces, the arm may be moving faster than the spiral of the lead-in groove. Because the arm has mass and inertia, it can easily keep right on going and pop out of said groove, to hopefully grab the next one. Warps are usually worse near the outer edge, making everything else described even more of an issue.

Saw your last post- that sounds more like mistracking. Maybe the stylus really is dirty and needs a wet cleaning. Tar like deposits can build up and be near impossible to remove. Maybe the alignment isn't as good as you think. Go to my website and try the arc template generator- be sure to read the read-me file! Finally, maybe the stylus is damaged.
__________________
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but at least I'm barking!

Last edited by Conrad Hoffman; 28th July 2011 at 04:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 05:03 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman View Post
Sure, the forces dragging the arm towards center are greater the further away from center you get. Anti-skating devices help there but are always compromises. There's also a slight bulge on the outer edge of many records and the surface at the beginning can be slightly "downhill". The tonearm wires could be pulling is slightly at the outer edge, depending on how they're biased. All this stuff conspires to cause skipping if there's any groove damage or scratches near the edge. There's also an inertia effect. When the stylus touches down, it usually doesn't land directly in a groove. The arm then moves inward until the stylus "catches" a groove. Without adequate anti-skating forces, the arm may be moving faster than the spiral of the lead-in groove. Because the arm has mass and inertia, it can easily keep right on going and pop out of said groove, to hopefully grab the next one. Warps are usually worse near the outer edge, making everything else described even more of an issue.

Saw your last post- that sounds more like mistracking. Maybe the stylus really is dirty and needs a wet cleaning. Tar like deposits can build up and be near impossible to remove. Maybe the alignment isn't as good as you think. Go to my website and try the arc template generator- be sure to read the read-me file! Finally, maybe the stylus is damaged.
Thanks, I'll get your template. Please could you post a link to your website. The cart is a new AT 125 LC run in for about 8 hours. I wet clean it often since I'm using Cillit Bang to clean the records (you don't want to know - or perhaps you do- I've never found anything that removes surface noise and distortion like this but it seems to provoke a rage reaction in vinophiles).

Last edited by evetsfrance; 28th July 2011 at 05:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 05:17 PM   #7
Swarky is offline Swarky  Spain
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
So the question is : What cleans Cillit Bang deposits off a cartridge tip ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 05:25 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
indianajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jeffersonville, Indiana USA
I've had some used LP's be so dirty that they fuzzed up the needle in one band, causing massive skating and skipping. If they look horrible I wash them before I play them, but sometimes I get fooled. This month I thought I had a cracked needle diamond, but the reading glasses proved it was just a big ball of fuzz. I have the Shure M97 with a brush, too.
There are occasionally LP's with the hole not punched in the middle. My only record of Buxtehude (bought new from Colombia @ Foley's) is mislocated on the back, wow, wow, wow. Have found a CD of that by Lionel Rogg, now if I just didn't have to spend last month's pension on a tooth, and this month's on a car engine - - -Life, it is too real. Still, occasionally LP's at the charity resale shop for $.50 turn out to be a lightly used bargain, but almost never artists on your top ten list.
__________________
Dynakit ST70, ST120, PAS2,Hammond H182(2 ea),H112,A100,10-82TC,Peavey CS800S,1.3K, SP2-XT's, T-300 HF Proj's, Steinway console, Herald RA88a mixer, Wurlitzer 4500, 4300

Last edited by indianajo; 28th July 2011 at 05:29 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 05:27 PM   #9
jcx is online now jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
warp amplitude can be higher near the outer edge, the acceleration is then worse from the constant angular velocity
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2011, 06:24 PM   #10
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
kevinkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Blog Entries: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
warp amplitude can be higher near the outer edge, the acceleration is then worse from the constant angular velocity
Pretty good test of how well matched your cartridge compliance is to the effective mass of the arm.. Pretty interesting watching a badly under damped response in a mechanical system.. Taken to an extreme the stylus will actually leave the grooves at times, what an interesting sound that makes..

One of the other possibilities where distortion is very high on the first couple of cuts is if the recording was played with a badly worn stylus - the wear will probably be worst where the angular velocity is highest. I do have a few records that exhibit this trait.. It could also be a teen who liked a particular song and played it repeatedly in succession (not a few times, but dozens of times..)
__________________
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can I convert LPs to CDs? pendel Everything Else 22 13th November 2007 05:27 PM
distortion with LPs Zero One Analog Line Level 19 23rd August 2006 07:09 PM
Must-have LPs? Wally Music 24 10th April 2006 09:49 PM
Mistracking problems after new disc load jeff mai Digital Source 2 29th May 2005 12:20 AM
Portable LPS Prune Everything Else 2 4th October 2003 04:17 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:43 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2