Hi, I have already been helped by thorstenL on how to generally isolate my table. I just want to continue the conversation in a new thread and will update my results and pictures in this thread so it will also be a reference later for other people.
This is what thorsten told me:
This is what thorsten told me:
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I don't have a camera, but I will open and take pictures whenever I can, because I don't understand where to put the car body sealant and where not to put it. But just so I understand, the heavier the base of my turntable, the better?
Also, when you say take a butcher block and squash balls, you mean that the butcher block will go under the plastic chassis filled with car body sealant?
Jason
I would use SR500/1000 anti vibration compound. Cleans up with water, no nasty solvents flashing off.
jeff
I second Murphy's donut ring idea, many years ago a comparison was made between all different media that are used to support turntables and CD transports. I think it was in stereophile or sound and vision. They compared granite slab, formed concrete, spring, elastomeric, rubber, sand filled and air cushion. Of course they reviewed products that were all manufactured by different companies for the specific purpose.
IIRC they came to the conclusion that a produt called earthquake platforms were found to be the best at isolating both airbourne and mechanically transmitted vibrations. This product was of the air suspension type.
They then went on to explain that most air suspension isolators would do a better job @ this and stated that the common hemrrhoid ring ( I think which they tested as well) would do the job admirably.
I then came up with the idea to use those 3/4" neodymium supermagnets laid within the bottom and four sides of a shalllow box 22"*22"* 1 1/2" , as well as on the lightweight platform sitting under my transport so that each box magnet had a corresponding platform magnet of the same polarity: north to north. I used glued-on Velcro on the backs of the magnets for repositioning until I got the platform floating centered... Voila
IIRC they came to the conclusion that a produt called earthquake platforms were found to be the best at isolating both airbourne and mechanically transmitted vibrations. This product was of the air suspension type.
They then went on to explain that most air suspension isolators would do a better job @ this and stated that the common hemrrhoid ring ( I think which they tested as well) would do the job admirably.
I then came up with the idea to use those 3/4" neodymium supermagnets laid within the bottom and four sides of a shalllow box 22"*22"* 1 1/2" , as well as on the lightweight platform sitting under my transport so that each box magnet had a corresponding platform magnet of the same polarity: north to north. I used glued-on Velcro on the backs of the magnets for repositioning until I got the platform floating centered... Voila
I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Their is the suspension board I need to do with a butcher block that I'll stick to my table case filled with something heavy inside AND I get something air filled like squash balls to put under the butcher block, or it's one or the other (suspension or air)?
Hi,
Just to clarify a few things.
First, if you take the 1200 or 1210 apart, you end up with a rubbery plastic lower part and a cast metal top part.
The cast metal top part has many areas that are hollow and are not filled with the plastic base when attached.
You can see this a little in this crossection:
And in this picture of a partially disassembled table:
There are also voids in the area under the platter.
It is these areas that I propose filling with a mixture of Lead or Steel shot (or if you cannot find these, use small M3 Nuts or any such) and some semi-solid filler, carefully of course, making sure you do not foul any part of the mechanism.
Car body sealant is what I have used a number of times, as it is cheap and easy to get, the smell dissipates after a while, during which one keeps the chassis in the shed... Other options are of course welcome and I am not insisting on using foul smelling chemicals, it is important that the filler will adhere to metal and can set semi-solid.
I have done this style of mod over the years to a wide range of Japanese DD Tables, from a cheap plastic Sansui to Kenwood KD-500 and (yes) Technics SL1200.
For the suspension, what is needed is a board or block of a material that is heavy, rigid and reasonably well damped AND available.
So-called Butcher Block cutting boards are a good choice. They are often made from so-called rubber wood, which hard, dense and well damped. They look like this:
You need to find a large size one, to be a bit larger than the Technics table.
In principle a granite slab like a gravestone (now don't go rob cemetries, try the local stone mason for leftovers and "dents & damages") are also good choices. Ideally we want as much mass as possible, constraints are size, the ability of the HiFi or other furniture present to support the weight and ultimately the static loading limit of the floor.
My last turntable with stand all together came to nearly 200Kg when fully assembled and floated on steeel fishing line "string suspension". Pictures here here:
My (Thorsten) system through the years
The doughnuts from the Apothecary are a good choice to make our butcher block levitate, otherwise string suspension would be my recommendation, but it is more involved, but even the yellow dot squash balls work very well...
Here is an isolation box with small size inner tubes (wheel barrow maybe) that illustrates how to use air filled doughnuts, the top plate is obviously taken off in this picture...
It seems that the squash ball with something to stop it from rolling away is now also commercial:
Pictures of a commercial string suspension system can be found here:
SSC Base CLASSIC Beech
The principle and execution should be clear from it, my variation was not to use poly rope but steel.
In my experience String or "air-doughnut" are best, but squash balls run close.
In many ways it is more question of putting what you can find locally both easy and cheap to make it do the job you need it to do.
Ciao T
Just to clarify a few things.
First, if you take the 1200 or 1210 apart, you end up with a rubbery plastic lower part and a cast metal top part.
The cast metal top part has many areas that are hollow and are not filled with the plastic base when attached.
You can see this a little in this crossection:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And in this picture of a partially disassembled table:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
There are also voids in the area under the platter.
It is these areas that I propose filling with a mixture of Lead or Steel shot (or if you cannot find these, use small M3 Nuts or any such) and some semi-solid filler, carefully of course, making sure you do not foul any part of the mechanism.
Car body sealant is what I have used a number of times, as it is cheap and easy to get, the smell dissipates after a while, during which one keeps the chassis in the shed... Other options are of course welcome and I am not insisting on using foul smelling chemicals, it is important that the filler will adhere to metal and can set semi-solid.
I have done this style of mod over the years to a wide range of Japanese DD Tables, from a cheap plastic Sansui to Kenwood KD-500 and (yes) Technics SL1200.
For the suspension, what is needed is a board or block of a material that is heavy, rigid and reasonably well damped AND available.
So-called Butcher Block cutting boards are a good choice. They are often made from so-called rubber wood, which hard, dense and well damped. They look like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You need to find a large size one, to be a bit larger than the Technics table.
In principle a granite slab like a gravestone (now don't go rob cemetries, try the local stone mason for leftovers and "dents & damages") are also good choices. Ideally we want as much mass as possible, constraints are size, the ability of the HiFi or other furniture present to support the weight and ultimately the static loading limit of the floor.
My last turntable with stand all together came to nearly 200Kg when fully assembled and floated on steeel fishing line "string suspension". Pictures here here:
My (Thorsten) system through the years
The doughnuts from the Apothecary are a good choice to make our butcher block levitate, otherwise string suspension would be my recommendation, but it is more involved, but even the yellow dot squash balls work very well...
Here is an isolation box with small size inner tubes (wheel barrow maybe) that illustrates how to use air filled doughnuts, the top plate is obviously taken off in this picture...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It seems that the squash ball with something to stop it from rolling away is now also commercial:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Pictures of a commercial string suspension system can be found here:
SSC Base CLASSIC Beech
The principle and execution should be clear from it, my variation was not to use poly rope but steel.
In my experience String or "air-doughnut" are best, but squash balls run close.
In many ways it is more question of putting what you can find locally both easy and cheap to make it do the job you need it to do.
Ciao T
Thanks, but I'm not sure if I understand everything correctly. I have a couple of question:
-The stock plastic case will go away and will be replaced by the butcherblock? I then screw the butcher block to the metal top part?
- between the cast metal top part and the butcher block, thats where I put the squash balls and make the air suspension?
Also, the sl-1200 mk2 and mk1 isn't the same internally. I have open it up yesterday (I'll post pictures tonight). I have the sl-1200 mk1 just so you know thorsten.
cheers and thanks
Jason
-The stock plastic case will go away and will be replaced by the butcherblock? I then screw the butcher block to the metal top part?
- between the cast metal top part and the butcher block, thats where I put the squash balls and make the air suspension?
Also, the sl-1200 mk2 and mk1 isn't the same internally. I have open it up yesterday (I'll post pictures tonight). I have the sl-1200 mk1 just so you know thorsten.
cheers and thanks
Jason
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Hi,
No, the turntable is more or less original (except mods) and is placed on top of the buthcher block.
No, whatever suspendion you choose is below the butcher block,
In essence the suspension elements are placed on your rack (or whatever furniture you use).
The butcher block, or marble pastry cutting bord, or gravestone shaving or whatever you can readily find that is the right size, heavy and solidis placed on top of the suspesnsion element.
The combination strongly resists the transmission of mechanical vibrations to the top of the butcher block.
So putting anything on top there isolates it from mechanical vibrations.
While the benefits are debated for (say) pre-amplifiers or CD-Players, in case of a purely mechanical system such as a turntable they are undebated...
They are quite similar in principle, the details are just details...
Ciao T
No, the turntable is more or less original (except mods) and is placed on top of the buthcher block.
No, whatever suspendion you choose is below the butcher block,
In essence the suspension elements are placed on your rack (or whatever furniture you use).
The butcher block, or marble pastry cutting bord, or gravestone shaving or whatever you can readily find that is the right size, heavy and solidis placed on top of the suspesnsion element.
The combination strongly resists the transmission of mechanical vibrations to the top of the butcher block.
So putting anything on top there isolates it from mechanical vibrations.
While the benefits are debated for (say) pre-amplifiers or CD-Players, in case of a purely mechanical system such as a turntable they are undebated...
They are quite similar in principle, the details are just details...
Ciao T
okay, so what do I do with the plastic case? I filled it with body car sealant as well?
Also, you say that I need to use about how much squash balls? They do need to be placed at regular distance from each other under the butcher block?
Do I just put the table on top of the butcherblock or do I screw the butcher block to the table?
Also, you say that I need to use about how much squash balls? They do need to be placed at regular distance from each other under the butcher block?
Do I just put the table on top of the butcherblock or do I screw the butcher block to the table?
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Hi,
Rather not. The plastic probably will not like the solvents in the filler.
BTW, no need to absolutely car body sealant, it is really smelly until set. You can try the alternatives suggested here.
Once you treated the cast metal part simply re-fit the plastic.
Ciao T
Rather not. The plastic probably will not like the solvents in the filler.
BTW, no need to absolutely car body sealant, it is really smelly until set. You can try the alternatives suggested here.
Once you treated the cast metal part simply re-fit the plastic.
Ciao T
Okay, but I do put weight in the empty plastic case or do I leave it like that?
and how much squash balls I'll need
Hi,
I would try to fill it as much as possible, hard to make precise recommendations. The final material really does not matter that much, but you want both weight and damping and something that will not creep, be easy to work with and easy to keep away from places where it would foul mechanics.
So best to be pragmatic, do what you can, the best you can, don't loose sleep over the rest.
They do come in diffeent hardness grades, I have always used "yellow dot" grade and one ball for 1-2kG. I think even with added weight 4 pcs might dor for a technics, if the platform is heavy you need more...
Ciao T
I would try to fill it as much as possible, hard to make precise recommendations. The final material really does not matter that much, but you want both weight and damping and something that will not creep, be easy to work with and easy to keep away from places where it would foul mechanics.
So best to be pragmatic, do what you can, the best you can, don't loose sleep over the rest.
They do come in diffeent hardness grades, I have always used "yellow dot" grade and one ball for 1-2kG. I think even with added weight 4 pcs might dor for a technics, if the platform is heavy you need more...
Ciao T
Hi,
I would put the sealant or other filler together with the shot, nuts, whatever across almost the entire chassis and fill to the rim.
It looks there are several sub-divisions from the casting, this will help to provide natural dividers. Just leave the space where you will need to mount the electronic PCB and transformer etc back.
The way it looks you may have to glue in some paper or plastic divider to avoid the filler running into these areas.
Looking at the photos of the plastic underbody, this is also definitly worth filling with filler & metal shot. It looks like PVC to me (but not sure), so you need to for stuff that is safe to use with this.
The later version has that, however I would instead suggest to replace the original rubber platter mat with a glass one. The Glass/Metal sandwich is very well damped. Top the glass mat with a thin felt or leather mat. Felt mats are common for DJ's, leather is harder to find but I prefer it.
Ciao T
I would put the sealant or other filler together with the shot, nuts, whatever across almost the entire chassis and fill to the rim.
It looks there are several sub-divisions from the casting, this will help to provide natural dividers. Just leave the space where you will need to mount the electronic PCB and transformer etc back.
The way it looks you may have to glue in some paper or plastic divider to avoid the filler running into these areas.
Looking at the photos of the plastic underbody, this is also definitly worth filling with filler & metal shot. It looks like PVC to me (but not sure), so you need to for stuff that is safe to use with this.
The later version has that, however I would instead suggest to replace the original rubber platter mat with a glass one. The Glass/Metal sandwich is very well damped. Top the glass mat with a thin felt or leather mat. Felt mats are common for DJ's, leather is harder to find but I prefer it.
Ciao T
Okay! What a mess! I found a product meant to stick isolation panels to the walls that can adhere well on metal or plastic and that doesn't get hard.
I then went to a thrift store and managed to find 15 lb of screws and such. I couldn't put as much as I wanted under the metal case since all the electronics was there. Everything went well I think! I'll post pictures soon. The table is way more heavy.
Now I need to do the suspension base and the glass platter. How thick can the glass platter be?
I then went to a thrift store and managed to find 15 lb of screws and such. I couldn't put as much as I wanted under the metal case since all the electronics was there. Everything went well I think! I'll post pictures soon. The table is way more heavy.
Now I need to do the suspension base and the glass platter. How thick can the glass platter be?
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Hi,
Sounds like you got it. It should not only be heavier, but knocking the various surfaces with your knuckle should produce much less sound , a very dull thud, compared to a hollow ring...
The practical limit is that you to retain a certain length of the centre spindle accessible so the LP can be put on centred.
Ciao T
Sounds like you got it. It should not only be heavier, but knocking the various surfaces with your knuckle should produce much less sound , a very dull thud, compared to a hollow ring...
The practical limit is that you to retain a certain length of the centre spindle accessible so the LP can be put on centred.
Ciao T
Okay, I thought that the height couldn't be too high because it would affect the whole arm design?... So let's say 1 cm would be enough?
And yes the pvc base is now clearly damped (didnt weight anything and now its heavy!), my only concern is the upper metal case, I couldn't get as much as I wanted, nor everywhere. I have put a lot where I could, but all along the bottom of the electronic board and where all the wires are, I didnt put any damping, since I was afraid to cause a problem. I still was able to put a lot of damping everywhere else. But it got me thinking...
Should have I concentrate my effort on putting as much as I could in the uppermetal case and less in the plastic case or vice-versa? Thing is, I put a lot more of dampings in the plastic case, which sort of limited my space to damp the upper metal case because well there's so much I can put in both since they will be interefering with each other when I put the two parts together. Should I maybe rethink this (while its still fresh and easily maneuverable) and put as much as possible in the uppermetal case?
Hi,
I doubt that 10mm will even be possible What is the length of the centre pin that is exposed from your platter? I think maybe 5mm will be a practical limit, have a look and measure.
I think you have already made significant improvements, time to have a listen and see if you notice any change...
Both. The ideal situation would be a single solid pieces without resonances...
What we are trying is to get as close to the ideal as we can, without fouling the mechanics and causing trouble...
Ciao T
I doubt that 10mm will even be possible What is the length of the centre pin that is exposed from your platter? I think maybe 5mm will be a practical limit, have a look and measure.
I think you have already made significant improvements, time to have a listen and see if you notice any change...
Both. The ideal situation would be a single solid pieces without resonances...
What we are trying is to get as close to the ideal as we can, without fouling the mechanics and causing trouble...
Ciao T
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