I need to look for a vintage or a new turntables...

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hi, I'm sort of short on cash, so normally if I want something decent, I go for vintage.

However, after I read a lot on the subject, new tables seems to be better since their technology have simply advanced. Is that even true?

So, first of all, what should I look for: vintage or new, and what are your recommendation for a 500$ TT, cartridge EXCLUDE.

thanks
 
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I'm of the opinion the TT from the mid-seventies was the pinnacle of TTs'. You can still get decent ones for a song, perhaps one could get two or three exact same models so you assured of parts. Stay with known brands, Marantz, Pioneer, Dual, Thorens, et. al. Pay attention to the Dust-covers/Lids, they often got cracked/broken or scratched severely.
Direct drive vs. Belt-drive is a whole nother' topic.
The current crop of TTs' with the fifty pound platters doesn't peak my interest, nor does the hyper prices or Art-Deco "artsy" looks.

__________________________________________________________Rick.....
 
Very good TT used are technics sl1500 sl1700,sl1200.

Denon DP...

thorens TD160,TD125,TD124.

Dual cs5000, vintage cs701

And there are also great new ones Project, Clearaudio, and many exotic ones I do not know.

When you look at lowprice and best technical spec go for a Technics sl1500. And good technical spec and vintage look TD160.

There where lately great Garrad 401 TT advertisements. So what is your taste?
 
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Technics 1200 are pretty incredible value. i would be wary of something that had been DJ'd. Like if the person is selling a pair i would have a good look at the arm etc. Its a very good design and sounds pretty "HI-FI" at my house, what ever you might read on the internet
 
new tables seems to be better since their technology have simply advanced. Is that even true?

What technology advance?

Development essentially stopped with the introduction of the CD.

In the 70ies and 80ies one got a top notch direct drive table with ever improving s/n ratios and speed accuracy; today everything (except the good old 1200 and a Denon) is build around heavy mass and/or belt drive as the technology is very simple and cheap.

A lot of people are aware of this for a long time, so a good vintage table is not cheap, however, your budget should be sufficient.

Hannes
 
The sl1500,1600, 1700,1200 are technical in basic the same level the same direct drive motor.

So probably the sl1500 will be the lowest price on the second hand market.

I own self a SL1700 (and a thorens td124) real nice hifi table, the arm has very light moving bearings automatic turn off quick start perfect quartz controlled speed are a top piece of engineering for price performance and rumble figures.
The arm is perfect adjustable for every cartridge also the VTA most complete hifi TT and arm. The grey chassis is aluminium.
Description

The SL-1700 offers the famous Technics direct drive system with the added convenience of semi-automatic operation.

Once the tonearm is manually positioned over the lead in grooves, the automatic mechanism will lower the tonearm onto the record when the lever is flicked, and automatically return it to the arm rest at the completion of play. The unit is then automatically shut off.

This handy feature frees the user from rushing to the turntable at the end of record play and also saves wear on your stylus.

At any time during play, flicking the stop lever will cause the tonearm to automatically lift up and return to the arm rest.

Specifications

Type: semi-automatic turntable

Drive method: direct drive

Motor: servo DC motor (mk1), brushless DC motor (mk2)

Platter: 330mm (mk1), 332mm 1kg (mk2)

Speeds: 33 and 45rpm

Wow and flutter: 0.025% WRMS

Rumble: -73dB (mk1), -78dB (mk2)

Tonearm: universal s-shaped tubular arm

Effective length: 230mm

Overhang: 15mm

Offset angle: 21.5 degrees (mk1), 22 degrees (mk2)

Weight: 8.8kg (mk1), 10kg (mk2)




The sl1200 is popular in the DJ scene and therefore very common only expensive.
 

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TD-150, TD-125 or TD-126 are other potential candidates and are very tweakable. In many instances they will come with a good vintage arm like the SME 3009 (various versions) or Ortofon and generally fall within your budgetary guidelines.

Purchasing on eBay can be a gamble because you can never be quite sure that the person selling the table has any clue as to how to pack it so that it does not arrive damaged. Verify that the seller knows how to pack (likely if he sells other TT online) or try to find one locally on craigslist or freecycle.
 
Canknuckle to Canuckle...

Jason,

as stated by others:

it all depends on what you want. Without getting into the Direct Drive vs Belt Drive, vs. Idler Drive thing. I have a few comments:

some new tables offer outstanding value. For Example a Rega P1 with arm and cartridge, or used P2, P3 etc.

Vintage tables can be an incredible value too. Way too many standouts to list. But Thorens, AR, some Duals, etc are good. Technics SL 1100/1200, etc are good direct drive tables. I bought a Roksan Xerxes for $150, and after a minor amount of tinkering and a hot-rodded RB300, it sounds excellent.(but I gave it away as a gift...damn!)

One thing though, if you cannot afford to lose any $$$, if purchased over the Internet, consider using an escrow service. If in a larger centre, buy local if possible. Don't worry about dust covers. Never listen to a table with one on it.


stew
 
AR, what is ar? Ariston?

Thanks for all your recommendation. I clearly want a belt driven tsble, as I want the most commonly known as the best method to have a table driven, and then build on that. Upgrading my table on something already good is way more interesting then using something bad ans try to make it sing.


Okay so the thorens seems to be interesting, what else?it seems to be low-end, or its already decent and I can make a thorens an excellent table? or its only going to be a fine table?

I didnt mention this, but I want a table that with a new arm and quite good cartridge (300$) can become a excellent table and I won't feel the need to look for a better one, if you know what I mean, I'm not a maniac, but I need to know that what I have is "great enough" whatever that mean to you, lol.

For example, I went with the buffalo dac just to know that I have something good/great enough, so I can then, with time build on it, I didnt want to go with "do you have experience with the cheap dac" and then try to mod the **** out of it to make it sing.

thanks... and please keep that in mind, but thanks so far for your help!
 
WTF do you want? You want speed stability, low noise from motor and bearings. Any thorens - I prefer the TD 125 and own two, one with an MG1 airbearing arm, one with a SME 3 arm - will be below audibility.
The noise floor of the motor and bearing (typically between -60dB to - 75dB) is way below the noise floor of any LP, which will usually max out at about -40 - -45dB. That is all you typically get from an LP, every claim to noise floors lower than that is just so much BS and not born out by any of the 2000 records I own.

Speed stability is the second consideration - any of the Thorens will be excellent for that, and the TD 125 has a build in stroboscope.

My personal preference is either a tangential arm - the MG1 is affordable but still above your range. I'd go for a TD 125/SME 2 combo, you should be able to get one for below 500$.
To tweak - build yourself a nice laminated plinth for the TD, an armboard from some nice wood or ABS flat panel (which I use), install some cones to adjust the level of the plinth and bobs at least your uncle.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/5564/rackandplayers.jpg

The one player I really like because of convenience is the Technics SL 10 I picked up for three $ from the Sally Ann in perfect working condition with original cartridge.
Does not lag behind any of the other three TT'a I own (among them the Mitchell Transcriptors Hydraulik reference with SME 2 Arm)

AR stands for Acoustic research, some US thingy...

As for cartridge - go with the Denon DL 160 or the DL 103 (low output). I use both on different arms and replaced a shure 500Ultra, a shure V15VXMR, a Goldring 1042
and several other cartridges I owned with those. Extremely neutral, almost ruler flat when tested with test tracks and and RTA (on a behringer deq). A little 3dB lift in the 16 - 20kHz region and flat down to at least 20Hz.

PS - don't fall for this audiophile BS re: deeper blacks...LP's are noisy, even when new.
I play them for the nostalgia, for the process, the haptics, the tweaking and fussing about etc. I also play wet - for the last 40 years.
For real every day listening I use my media server.
 
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AR, what is ar? Ariston?

Thanks for all your recommendation. I clearly want a belt driven tsble, as I want the most commonly known as the best method to have a table driven, and then build on that.
It isn't as simple as that the thorens a old table that is copied by modern high-end tables. Belt driven mass platter.

For pure measurements you can build a quiter table as the mentioned technics direct drive tables. rumble figures 0f 78-80dB are at the limit you can get with a TT.

There are good direct drive and belt drive do not just discriminate one they are both good.

And what audio-kraut mentioned the noise level of a clean LP is I thought near 65dB.

You only have to look what you think is you type of design taste. Then compare noise levels and tweak possibilities. The TD160 has a good durable main bearing better then newer types. On the web are tweak sites for thorens td160.

When you are going for technical facts and good arm without tweak buy the technics.
 
LP is I thought near 65dB.

That maybe a theoretical achievable value. Even on classical shrink wrapped records from our esteemed CBC I have never encountered such low values.

Anyway - any half decent player (besides some Duals and some cheapo japanese players) will achieve noise values re motor and bearings below that.

The thorenses I bought from ebay were functional, but one was a garage find that needed cleaning up. Looks great now and was somewhere around 120$.
 
If you are able to, perhaps you could borrow a turntable from a friend or two and compare a few brands and types that have been recommended so far by others ( belt drive vs. direct).
As you can see the personal opinions and preferences are diverse and wide-ranging. Some TTs seem to match up better with certain systems and listening environments.
Like Syd I think the ARs properly tweaked gives surprising results given its rather simple design at an extremely affordable price.
Then there are the considerations of cartridge, (MM or MC) stylus, phono-stage etc etc.
Like all else in audio...experimentation, ears-on listening to various decks and A/B comparison--preferably connected to your actual system...will provide a few answers.
I concur also with the observations that the Tech12 can't be beat for plug and play, ease of set-up, reliability and performance at its price point.
 
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