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Old 18th June 2011, 06:08 AM   #61
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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It is not a trapped pulley I mean stepped.
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Old 18th June 2011, 08:20 AM   #62
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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I had to adjust the eddy current break to near maximum level now everything runs so smooth.
A good sign all the oiling of turn table parts an revision of the motor had positive effect.

It is e real pleasure to play records on the TD124 works great sounds good. Looks professional with the aluminum frame. I was very lucky to find such a nice one.
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 19th June 2011, 11:04 AM   #63
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Default Constant speed TD124

Hi,

After a cold start the td124 is running to slow. One would aspect the speed depends on synchron motor and the 50/60hz of the main-supply this isn't the hole story I think.
Cold start? Yes in the td 124 the engine is warming-up. This temperature changes are responsible for speed variation that is what I think.

At my job I do a lot of temperature testing on switching power-supplies. The temperature rise of most medium power-supply with enclosure takes about 3 hours it follows a E-curve.
This means the E50 motor of the TD124 will run constant after 3 hours.

This morning I did the test.
After start the TT runs to slow after 2 minutes it is acceptable aft ten even better.
After one and a half hour it runs the right speed so the engine is so far in the E-curve that it end point for influence on speed so it stays constant.

That is the result of the Thorens being mechanical speed controlled and be affected by friction variation in the design.
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Old 19th June 2011, 03:36 PM   #64
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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All true, although the times you quote indicate motor service is probably needed. I assume you have not serviced the motor yet. It really, really makes a huge difference. Disassembly is comparatively easy and depending on bearing condition you can either clean and reuse them or replace them as you desire. (At minimum you must clean and completely remove the old lubricants.) I've done this on a number of TD-124 tables and once functioning nominally the TT is up to 100% of set speed in under 10 minutes from a cold start and is rock stable after that assuming an ambient of 20C or so. (Colder it will take longer) Also when completely cold it runs just a couple of % slow at worst. Take a look at my thread for information on overhauling the motor, and go here to see what is involved: http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/index.htm
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Old 19th June 2011, 03:50 PM   #65
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinkr View Post
All true, although the times you quote indicate motor service is probably needed. I assume you have not serviced the motor yet. It really, really makes a huge difference. Disassembly is comparatively easy and depending on bearing condition you can either clean and reuse them or replace them as you desire. (At minimum you must clean and completely remove the old lubricants.) I've done this on a number of TD-124 tables and once functioning nominally the TT is up to 100% of set speed in under 10 minutes from a cold start and is rock stable after that assuming an ambient of 20C or so. (Colder it will take longer) Also when completely cold it runs just a couple of % slow at worst. Take a look at my thread for information on overhauling the motor, and go here to see what is involved: ƒg[ƒŒƒ“ƒX THORENS model TD 124
In the previous pages you can see I did replace the bearing an felt rings and did buy a original belt. I have the eddy current break placed very close to the stepped pulley because the TT runs with very low resistance now, when I bought it it would not run slightly to slow and adjustment would not help.

But it cant help the motor to heat up for a longer period of time and with that being a influence on speed. Maybe when the new bearings have run in for a longer period it will change.
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Old 19th June 2011, 04:00 PM   #66
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmuth View Post
In the previous pages you can see I did replace the bearing an felt rings and did buy a original belt. I have the eddy current break placed very close to the stepped pulley because the TT runs with very low resistance now, when I bought it it would not run slightly to slow and adjustment would not help.

But it cant help the motor to heat up for a longer period of time and with that being a influence on speed. Maybe when the new bearings have run in for a longer period it will change.
I found for about the first 100hrs motor performance did change significantly, and both the weight of the oil (20wt) and the amount present is fairly critical. (Lots of oil!) I also had to adjust the eddy current brake in order to not have the table actually run too fast - this I have not resolved to my full satisfaction, but the table runs dead silent on its slate plinth so I can't really complain.
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Old 20th June 2011, 01:22 PM   #67
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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I was thinking why this direct drive sounds better then my other table's I owned.
My first table dual cs16.
Click the image to open in full size.
It had poor ceramic cartridge.
After that one I carfully selected a cs628.
Click the image to open in full size.
When I wanted to buy it it was obsolete and I had to make a quick choice at the shop and bought a dual cs503-1 what a lousy plastic TT was that I hated it for fooling me that moment in the shop.
Click the image to open in full size.
After that I buid my own high end table with the frame of the CS16 and a second hand RB301 and I placed van den Hul tone arm wiring.
Click the image to open in full size.
It performed quite good but it wasn't quit enough and speed variation I could not improve.

After that one a second hand SL1700 a perfect table to adjust and use. I wanted it to use as base for the rb301 but I could not do it it was to good just how it was. I still have it.
Click the image to open in full size.

Now with the Thorens satisfaction is coming my way after many years, I like the 60ties sturdy style. And to work with the table is some how natural I think because it is not wobbly by suspension it feels stable.
The vintage look and story is great for being a formal studio TT. It isn't just the story it performs also on high level the reproduction on the TD124 with the RB301 makes me play one record after the other.
A look at the strobe and the way it is made with a little mirror is are such nice details I love it.
Click the image to open in full size.

Comes to me what can be the reason why the sound quality of a mass driven direct drive idler wheel does sound a bit better then the belt drive dual or direct drive technics.
I think the high mass frame plinth and platter are less sensitive for surrounding noise of the speakers and increases bas performance also the idler wheel will help damp those resonances. The idler wheel will also cause some rumble on low frequent level but that will overall be masked by the bottom noise level of the record.
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Last edited by Helmuth; 20th June 2011 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 24th June 2011, 03:44 PM   #68
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default coming to "grips" with idlers

Helmut,

In my case a recently "hacked" Dual 1214 with my DIY tonearm and Grado "Black" cartridge has surplanted both a Roxsan Xerxes MkI (with hot-rodded Rega RB250: Tecno weight, VTA adjuster, Teflon/Ag single piece rewire and and Ortofon MC3 turbo cart) and my Oracle Alex MkII (SME 309 magnesium, Grado Sig8 MCZ cart, SME stock Van den Hul interconnect from arm to phono stage).

In both cases the old Dual combo easily outperformed the others with superior soundstaging, pace, rythm, attack, and timing (I'll call this SPRAT). To me the control of the platter by the motor via an idler makes up for the significant performance of the old Dual.

I do love my DIY arm, but can't say that is the reason for the superior performance, The DIY arm competes favourably with my SME when mounted on the same table using the same cartridge. Differrent, but in the same league). I can only atribute the increased performance to the old idler.

Please note that the old Dual was hacked using a Dremmel tool, a small pick for "E" clips, a pair of needle-nose pliers and a n electric screw driver.
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Last edited by Nanook; 24th June 2011 at 03:48 PM. Reason: added comment
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Old 24th June 2011, 04:10 PM   #69
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Hi Stew!
As a fairly recent convert to idler drive (I now own two TD-124s) I have to say once the problems are solved with a particular table the results can be pretty compelling. Lenco tables are still incredibly undervalued and might make a worthy candidate for further investigation/tinkering at reasonable cost. Lenco Heaven here: Lenco Heaven - Forum for The Classic Lenco Idler-Drive Turntables might be of considerable interest even to non Lenco owners.
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Old 24th June 2011, 04:31 PM   #70
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default Lencos and such...

Kevin,

yes, Lenco turntables are reputedly excellent and I have lurked over at Lenco Heaven for years but the prices are creeping up. I've had a couple of phone calls with Jean Nantais of Lenco fame, and he encouraged me to try a Dual to get my feet wet, and suggested I might be surprised.

Killing off the Oracle and Roxan was a suprise! The improvements were non-trivial. And that was with the old idler mounted on a scabbed together plinth (about as brutal as can be and not following any "recipes" for plinths, just cut ip scraps of wood).

Many undervalued changers are out there for folks who can't afford the big dogs (like me), but you often end up getting a similar bearing, platter, motor and idler system. How many old Duals are out there?

I recently picked up an old Philco console for $20. It has a VM turntable in it (a changer as most consoles had). All parts arre apparently still available for it. And it does have the really "cool" retro look similar to old McCurdy turntables. I also have an old Phillips console with an idler with similar cosmetics as the Thorens/ garrard 301, etc.
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